Ratio of VC/C & VB

[aio]

Now, we know where we are -- Thanks to Sonu on this thread.
http://www.codeguru.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=204164
What about who & what we are?;)

Anyway, the poll is to probe the ratio of VC/C programmers and VB programmers here in codeguru -- at least those active ones? If we base on the number of posts or number of threads, it seems that VC/Cs outnumbers VBs 4 to 1. But since VC/C is tougher to learn than VB, it could just be the reason why there are more threads and posts in VC/C compared with VB -- not an indicator on the real ratio of active members.

Let's probe it friends. Please vote. Thanks.

PS: I voted for "VB Only"

[Sonu Kapoor]

VC forever !!!!

I am a VC developer and i think i will stay it forever, althoug i have also developed in some internet languages included Java. If neccesary i will also do VB, but deep in my heart i am a VC developer.

-Sonu

[Cimperiali]

;)

Cesare Imperiali

[irona20]

I'm in favour of Sonu... VC forever :D

[aio]

Sonu:
VC forever !!!!

CImperiali:
VB Forever!

Irona20:
I'm in favour of Sonu... VC forever


Thanks. May I ask why?

Well, for me, I am not really a programmer by profession. Primarily, I'm a Sales & Marketing Services and Research personnel, and secondarily, a musician (bass guitar player) occasionally on weekends. I only write programs to solve problems related to my functions in Marketing.

More than 10 years ago, I was forced to learn programming because everytime I have projects then, I often have to explain a lot of things to our SA/Programmers who would often dazzle me with arcane tech words I could hardly understand. And if they can't deliver for me good/friendly programs, would automatically criticize me for "not having able to explain well" my needs.

My first programming languages were MS QBasic, Borland's Turbo Pascal and Turbo C. I also tried Assembly but immediately abandoned it when after a month of reading books, all I was able to achieve was to print the word "Hello World" in the middle of the screen.

Later on, I concentrated only on MS-BASICs (QB, VB1, VB4, VB6, & VBA) because this is the only thing that makes me enjoy solving the real problem and my music without dwelling so deep on technicalities often associated with Cs.


So what make you a VC/C or VB fanatics?

[Cimperiali]

...That is:
Vb seems easy to me, there is plenty of info everywhere (sites, books) and it took me only ten minutes when I started to print my
"hello word" in the middle of a form. It took 10 minutes also with C++, but with Vb I was also able to:
change colors of text while running, make text compose on the form word by word nad play a wav file in the meantime. Never tried to do the same with C++...
Definitely for me: Vb (and in the earlier times Basic) was easy to learn, and gave satisfactions since early times, while Java, C, C++ gave me really headache.
I also learned Rpg/400 (for a different kind of machine: As/400), but the green characters I could use (no pixels or mouse there, only charachters and text info, like worrking in Dos mode only) made me really sad, while the colored world of VB made and makes me happy.
;)

[Sonu Kapoor]

I was searching for a language with which i can do nearly anything what i want in windows. That was the main reason why i started with VC++ and not with VB. Since i learned also C and C++, i thought i would be good to stay with VC++. Till today i am doing VC++ and have never touched VB, i hope, that i will never have to learn VB. If yes i will do it !!! Not that i am en enemy of VB.

-Sonu

[irona20]

Well... in my first work.. my boss said to me: you have to learn VC++, and... I had to learn VC++ :D :D
Before that, I had programmed in VB at home for hobbie, but now I enjoy more with VC++ than VB, and right now I am learning about Java (for hobbie too). I love to learn about programming :)

[Gabriel Fleseriu]

You may want to read this (http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lite/big-picture.html#faq-6.4).

My favorite is C++, meaning that I like it best, but not that I would favor it irrationally in a business decision.

[JeffB]

I know both, but I know more VB and VB is more easy to learn "on-the-fly" than VC++. It's a pain to use CDaoDatabase (or something like that ) in Visual C++ if you don't have a book or a teacher.

I have started programming in QuickBasic 4.5, and I have "love" that. I quickly start to program game and little application in QB45, but that was a long time ago, when I started studying Programming, we learn ALL, VC++, C++, java, VB, Delphi, Cobol !, ..., but VB is so easy to learn and you can quickly make application with it. I've done complex program in Visual C++, I like the class system, but one thing I dislike is that you don't feel creating your program yourself, for example, create a MDI in Visual C++, before writing one line of code, you'll have a bunch of files full of code you don't really know what they do. Erase one line or add a character somewhere that you will never SEE AGAIN, and it is out. It happens sometimes, a whole project that don't want to compile again, and you don't know why... And it's a pain to link View and Doc and all of these things in a MDI. If you don't know how, or if you don't remember, you'll have to find it somewhere because it is all except intuitive ;) Why make it so complicated!

My two cents

JeffB

[Sonu Kapoor]

I think VB is a limited language. You could never write a Networking application like "Ping" in VB.

VB's advantage is that is very easy to learn for everybody.
VC's advantage is that, you can nearly do everything what you want.

VB's disadvantage is, that it is very limited.
VC's disadvantage is, that it is very complicated, but once you have mastered and understand how it works, you will never want to develope in any other language.

-Sonu

[Gabriel Fleseriu]

Originally posted by Sonu Kapoor
<snip>
VC's disadvantage is, that it is very complicated, but once you have mastered and understand how it works, you will never want to develope in any other language.


I somehow disagree with that. IMHO, the correct formulation is "...but once you have mastered and understand how it works, you will be happyest if the circumstances allow you to program in C++ and don't force you to use any other language".

Ok-ok, I've been nit-picking here ;)

[Sonu Kapoor]

Originally posted by Gabriel Fleseriu


I somehow disagree with that. IMHO, the correct formulation is "...but once you have mastered and understand how it works, you will be happyest if the circumstances allow you to program in C++ and don't force you to use any other language".

Ok-ok, I've been nit-picking here ;)

how true !!!

-Sonu

[aio]

I have seen several fora comparing VC with other languages (and usually with VB). If this question is put forward, the immediate impulse of VC users is the power of VC/C. The immediately response of VB users on the other hand is how they solved the problems in minutes. These 2 are typical replies (just an unverified observation):

Sonu:
I was searching for a language with which i can do nearly anything what i want in windows.

Cimperiali:
…Vb (and in the earlier times Basic) was easy to learn, and gave satisfactions since early times …




Do you agree that (another observation) …

- VC users tend to focus more on the power it wields and believed that solutions are more obtainable because of such power?

- VB users believed that solutions are more obtainable if one is more focused on the material problem at hand?



Gabriel:
"...but once you have mastered and understand how it works, you will be happyest if the circumstances allow you to program in C++ and don't force you to use any other language".


This seemed to articulate very well. The easiest language to handle I think is not VB or VC. It's the one you have mastered. The only problem here is that VC is more difficult to master.

BTW, thanks for the link Gabriel. It's a worthy info.




Jeff, sometimes, I would like to think that QB45 is more powerful than VB. The former can execute assembly instructions, directly access memory and many things, from within the language itself. Many of these features are stripped out of VB except that latter is saved by call to API.




My initial reading (September 10, 2002 - 8PM [GMT+8])

31.25% - VC/C Only
18.75% - VB Only
06.25% - Both but more on VC/C
43.75% - Both but more on VB
00.00% - Almost equally VB & VC/C

VCers outnumbered Vbers. But, those who have savored both languages tend to use VB more.

[JeffB]

Originally posted by aio

Jeff, sometimes, I would like to think that QB45 is more powerful than VB. The former can execute assembly instructions, directly access memory and many things, from within the language itself. Many of these features are stripped out of VB except that latter is saved by call to API.

So much funny things to do with QB :D
So much time passed doing funny things with QB :D
So limited.... :D

Just want to add to the discussion, Visual C++ use C langage and a strong classes utilisation. That is important to know if you want to be a good developer, you'll have an easy way to learn Delphi or Skrit :) if you know VC than if you only know VB, and more, C++ can be used on Linux / Unix.

But if you intend to develop on Window, Visual Basic is a most, you can't do a macro using C langage in Excel... ;)

I agree with the aio opinion,
VB -> Easy and limited
VC -> Harder but "stronger"
COBOL -> Hard and limited :D

Once you have mastered one of them, it is no more Hard!! :D

JeffB

[Yves M]

Hey, I still seem to be the only person using most of the time VC and only occaisonnally VB ;)

My programming experience is somewhat strange... ;)

I started with BBC Basic on a BBC computer.
Moved onto BBC Basic for PC (which is really not what anyone would want to do :p)
Moved to Turbo Pascal (I think they were at 5.0 when I started and I used it till long after TP7 came out)
Programmed in TP6 / assembler for some small games (DOS games with memory extender etc. in the times before Win 3.0 :p)
Got into OO when TP7 came out, although it was already present in the language since 5.5.
Then I went to university... Miranda (functional language), Turing (like Pascal), Java and C. (strange, I didn't learn any C++ :p)
I actually got really into Java and wrote a 80K lines project in it during a group project.
Then some work on a NEC supercomputer in C ;) That made me really hate C, because I could not handle all those memory leaks :p
Then I started "real" work and my first project was ATL :p Well, I took a crash course in C++, ATL and Windows programming (involving mostly me and my boss shouting at each other ;) ).
Since my project was an ATL control, I had to write some simple driver programs that used it, so the first choice was VB.

If you've seen what COM code looks like in VC and and VB, you whish you could use VB for everything :p But then again, calling the Windows API from VB is an unnecessary pain... And custom data structures are usually much more efficient in VC / STL than corresponding things in VB.

[coolbiz]

Go VB, go VB, go VB! :)

Well I sometimes have to go back to VC++ in order accomodate the more complication APIs. Not that I cannot do it in VB but it is easier to be done in VC++.

-Cool Bizs

[Xeon]

Well, hello to you all programmers who have entered the Hall of Fame! Why! Most of you here have programmed in at least 1 - 2 other languages other than Visual Basic, Visual C++ and Java!
Pascal, eh? :p

Well, unlike you guys, I started programming from the ground up :

I started by learning the 1s and 0s and how motherboard and the computer and electricity circuits can understand these currents, and after that, I moved on to machine language, and after that, to assembly......

No no.....ha ha...unfortunately, I started programming a bit too late in life.(at the age of 15.5 years old)
Intiallly, I started with Visual Basic, but because I've absolute 0% of programming experience before, I got totally scared and wet my pants at the sight of 3 - 6 lines of short simple code!!!!!!
These lines were :(I still remember them)

cmdOk.Enabled = True
cmdRadio.Enabled = True
cmdMove.Enabled = True
cmdCancel.Enabled = True
cmdClick.Enabled = True

Can u believe that???!!!

After that, I gave up Visual Basic, and went straight on to learn C++. The reason why I started with Visual Basic was that I had actually thought that Visual C++ is related to VB, and u need to know VB before you can do anything ib C++!!!!!!! :eek:

But I discovered ths wasn't true one night, so I went on to C++. And it was **** at this time, man! I spend a great deal of afternoons, days and nights studying this from books(no one to teach me) and at Chapter 8, I gave up and went to borrow some new books, and started at the simple, beginning chapters.......until one day......the Lord took pity on me, and gave me such a force that propel me to the level of a novice programmer.(I was ******* Programmer before that)
Kinda sad, but........

Anyway, here I am now.....at least I'm able to write sensible programs in C++ and MFC. :)
Plus, now that I have a somewhat acceptable grip on C++, most of the VB code I've seen are simple to me. :) Much more simpler!

And though I don't really like Java.......aye~! I can't scold or curse this language in public, cos' if I need to ask Java questions here, the Java programmers will not help me if they know I curse the language. :):D

Visual Basic programs are indeed fast to create : that's the strongest point in VB. All I need to worry about is the logic and flow of my program, not the technical details like windowing and such. In Visual C++, windowing and such, in additon to the flow and memory management stuff, makes me lose all my hair and such. How sad!
Visual Basic is better for creating programs like database applications, business suites and such. After all, business programs need to be upgraded to the next version very fast to meet competition in the market, and VB can cater to that.
Whereas the VB programmers are already adding the bells and whistles to the program, the poor Visual C++ programmers are still looking blankly at their Debug windows in the IDE enviroment, and worrying whether they have the time to spend with their kids and wives(or wife) and family and friends and such.
Aye~!
Besides, VB is also better for computer hobbyists : those guys who're somewhere between the level of novices and expert programmers. They can create fun programs for their personal use etc.
Plus : because VB doesn't heave all the flexibility on the programmer, VB programs tend to have less bugs than programs based in C/C++.

But when talking about programs like Norton Systemworks and system ultilites, programs like Bryce 5 and Adobe Photoshop, game programs like Quake, Diablo or WarCraft III and such......there's no way you can create them in VB. Maybe you can.......but how natural is that? How efficient can the resulting programs be? Visual C++ is the only tool which can achieve this, where low-level details, optimization, speed and performance are concerned.

The man is the man : and like Xeon the Man of all Men said before : Real man code in C++. :)

But that doesn't mean to say Visual Basic ain't good.
It ROCKS too. :):D

[aio]

Xeon:
Visual Basic programs are indeed fast to create : that's the strongest point in VB. ...

... Visual Basic is better for creating programs like database applications, business suites and such. After all, business programs need to be upgraded to the next version very fast to meet competition in the market, and VB can cater to that.
Whereas the VB programmers are already adding the bells and whistles to the program, the poor Visual C++ programmers are still looking blankly at their Debug windows in the IDE enviroment, and worrying whether they have the time to spend with their kids and wives(or wife) and family and friends and such.
...


Agree. But somethimes, this is also VB's weakest point. Some VB programmers tend to be less careful in planning. Because they can easily change course, they can afford to care less.

[jfaust]

VB and C++ don't solve the same problems. VB is great for a quick GUI for purposes of rapid prototyping, or for a frontend for a larger application NOT written in VB that exposes itself through COM interfaces.

The two biggest strengths of C++ is Object Oriented programming and generic programming. For the first time, in .Net, VB is object oriented. It never was before. I doubt if it will ever support generic programming. I can't imagine trying to write and maintain a large system in VB.

Jeff

[aio]

Originally posted by jfaust
I can't imagine trying to write and maintain a large system in VB.

Jeff
VC may outrun VB but I'm sure VB can still be used in large system. I think that's one purpose why VB has also been given so much power.

[Narayana Murty]

Sonu, How you become Moderator?

Hi All,
I just seen this voting and got impressed how you guys are doing. Great Job!!!

Well I am too working in VC++ since 5 1/2 years and getting more interested day by day.

Obviously VC++ is more powerful than VB as VB was developed in C++\VC++. But for some applications VB is pretty good for desiging GUI.

I know little about VB/Java. But I think now we all VC++ guys may need to update for VC#. Am I right?

As market is not good, and I am badly looking for good break.


I am very much pleasure to share this with you all.

Oh! I forgot to tell one thing. I am originally from INDIA. But now I am in USA.

Narayana Murty.

[Sonu Kapoor]

Originally posted by Narayana Murty
Sonu, How you become Moderator?


I talked with the sitemanager !!

-Sonu

[Xeon]

My! U talk to the Site Manager? Brad Jones! :)

Hmm.......maybe if I spam his mail box with zillions of e-mails asking him to make me Assistant Site Manager, he might agree. :D:D:D:D:D

[billwilson3]

I use both languages and agree with most of the characterizations in this thread. I do have to comment, however on one of the links:

You may want to read this.
(Part of C++ FAQ Lite, Copyright © 1991-2002, Marshall Cline, cline@parashift.com)

while it is interesting to read it is chalk full of inaccurate statements. Apparently the author was under the impression that if he didn't know how to do something in VB it couldn't be done. This is especially true as you get close to the bottom of the page. Some may call this a cheap shot since I don't offer any corrections. So be it, I don't have the time to correct so may mistatements.

Some VB programmers tend to be less careful in planning. Because they can easily change course, they can afford to care less.

This post hit on one of the most interesting phenomona in programming that I have seen. As time has passed, programming has been dumbed down to the point almost anyone can do it. It used to be MUCH HARDER without such things as IDEs, source debuggers & etc. What I found interesting is the reason for this.

Over th course of my carreer (just over 30 years now), I've watched programmers interact with business managers. As demand for computers (and programming) increased, the pool of capable people became overwhelmed. This led to considerable "boss abuse" by programmers. In the past it was very common for programmers to keep their own hours, dress to their own preference, determine what programs to write and be generally unreliable. I once knw a programmer who refused to work for any company that didn't let mim smoke pot in his office! And, he got away with it for years!!

This created an intolerable situation for business executives. The result was a large push for simpler languages and even (ugh) CASE tools. The result is a large number of people writing programs that have no idea what they are doing. They have no concept of what a computer does or how it goes about it.

Many programmers (especially VB and VBA) think that the there is some fairly direct relationship between the number of commands in a program and the amount of work the computer will do to accomplish them!

In any case, the result has been a lot of really poor software. It is the main reason, IMHO that computers run at gigabyte speeds with huge memories and yet perform no better than earlier versions with 1% the power.

Anyway enough of may rambling rant. Thanks for reading it.

[Xeon]

Wow! A programmer with over 30 years of programming experience! U must definetly be a grand old daddy who've seen lots of programming stuff happening in the real world since Day 1, right? :D


The result is a large number of people writing programs that have no idea what they are doing. They have no concept of what a computer does or how it goes about it.

Hmmm......I'm guilty of this.........how sad! Although I use Visual C++, I rely totally on MFC and high level programing platforms libraries, like the Win32 API.
Although some of you may consider the API to be low level, I think those really low-level suff is about understanding how the computer really works, and how the OS manages memory at the lowest level, how variables are really stored in memory and how the OS can actually detect them etc.

But then, I guess I never have to learn all this, though. Aye~! Times have changed.......but I know darn well, though.........that without truly understanding about the lowest-most foundation of any topic or subject, u can never become an expert in it.
Sad but true. :):D:rolleyes:

[aio]

Originally posted by Xeon
Wow! A programmer with over 30 years of programming experience! U must definetly be a grand old daddy who've seen lots of programming stuff happening in the real world since Day 1, right? :D
...
Definitely a guru.


billwilson3:
As demand for computers (and programming) increased, the pool of capable people became overwhelmed. This led to considerable "boss abuse" by programmers. In the past it was very common for programmers to keep their own hours, dress to their own preference, determine what programs to write and be generally unreliable. I once knw a programmer who refused to work for any company that didn't let mim smoke pot in his office! And, he got away with it for years!!

This is almost similar to what had happened to me more than ten years ago (refer to my 2nd post in this thred). The only difference is, I was not the Boss.

Thanks God, VB (Q/Turbo Basics at that time) came into being. Anyone can create a programs without necessarily understanding the heart, the kidneys, the intestines of the computer.

Don't care what is behind the scene. Don't care if VB do it in 5 minutes when VC can do the same job in 4 minutes only. For us (or maybe most of) VB programmers, the most important thing -- solve the problem the easiest way.

Sonu:
I talked with the sitemanager !!

Sonu,

Any pressure added to being a Moderator?

[Fierytycoon]

LISP ALL THE WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!

Just kidding. :D Anyways, there is a simple answer to this question of whether VC++ or VB is the choicer language. You see, in general, most people believe that the VB language is much simpler than VC++ and is hence made for newbies. Thus, to appear intelligent and cool, VC++ is the better path. :cool:

Fierytycoon

[Xeon]

Thus, to appear intelligent and cool, VC++ is the better path.

Totally true, Fiery pal!
Great minds think alike! :):D
Wow! ;)

One of the reasons why I chose Visual C++ was cos' I wanna be a real man in front of those young li'l gurls. :):D

[Sonu Kapoor]

Originally posted by aio
Sonu,

Any pressure added to being a Moderator?

Yeah, of course. As a moderator you have to see the threads from an another view, than a user. You have take care of all things, also reply users and check the threads....and much more.

-Sonu

[Metaphor]

In my experience, restricting yourself to one language is just stupid. Atleast if you want work, and want a broad scope of knowledge and know-how.

VC++ allows for sleek, fast applications of any scale without any pesky OCX files, and whatnot. One can still use DLLs. Happy.

VB allows for smaller applications, with OCX files unfortunately, but it's very fast, and does the job. I don't know anyone with a computer that could tell the difference in speed between a small VC++ app, and a small VB app.

VBScript, a derivative of VB, is used a **** of a lot in ASP, hence that is a good language to know if you want anything to do with the hyped up MS Web Services. Also XML, and VB. NET.

Java I haven't even touched yet, but I guess the same could be said there. Works for all types of apps, and on the 'net, if you bother learning the script version.

So. In conclusion: I wouldn't downgrade any language, at the benefit of another. They're all useable for different things, and all have their pros and cons. So why bicker? "Mazda!" "No, Ford!" Yeah. Whatever. :)

[Platinum Plus]

Originally posted by Sonu Kapoor


Yeah, of course. As a moderator you have to see the threads from an another view, than a user. You have take care of all things, also reply users and check the threads....and much more.

-Sonu

Do you get paid for this or it is a hobby and do you also do other things like maintain the database and develop the site :cool:

[Sonu Kapoor]

Do you get paid for this or it is a hobby and do you also do other things like maintain the database and develop the site

The money is not important for me. Its a passion and a hobby. Sometimes i develope sites, like the Visual C++ FAQ, but thats me and Gabriel.

Sonu

[Platinum Plus]

The money is not important for me.


OK I will PM you my Swiss Bank Account :D

[Xeon]

Wow! So, you actually get money from being a moderator????!!! Cool! Think of the stuff you can buy for your female friends with that money......oohhh......they'll go crazy for ye', really!!!!!!!! :):D

[aio]

Originally posted by Sonu Kapoor


The money is not important for me. Its a passion and a hobby. Sometimes i develope sites, like the Visual C++ FAQ, but thats me and Gabriel.

Sonu

Not even a token? Let's say just for the portion of electricity bills and/or internet connection?

[Sonu Kapoor]

I didnt said that i get any money !!! But enough for now about that topic. Dont mind guys, but i dont like to talk about that topic.

-Sonu

[aio]

sure man. sorry.

[Xeon]

Sonu my good pal.......what u really need is a cup of hot chocolate and chicken chop with french fries, bread, beans and sauce, complete with soup. Don't be too hard on yourself, cos' u know u're da' man. :):D:);)

[JeffB]

I also think that these languages were more different years ago than now, VB support API and can do most of the things VC can, maybe one day we'll have only one langage!! :eek:

Well anyway, I wanted to add something I found in MSDN (like everytime I was searching something completely different), it is an artical that talk about p-code, and the article writer (Miller Freeman) have created a small primer number program and shows the results (he also show the code for both VB5 version and C version) :

From MSDN

[...]the results on an 90MHz Pentium computer when computing prime numbers between 1 and 50,000[...]

Code Type Elapsed time Percentage of (in seconds) p-code speed

Within the Visual Basic environment 134.63 79%

Compiled p-code 106.72 100%

Compiled native code 40.15 265%

C program 35.12 305%

This article is reproduced from Microsoft Systems Journal. Copyright © 1997 by Miller Freeman, Inc.


As you see, C program RULES in that case, I can't find the article on microsoft WebSite, but it said brief quotations can be used ;)

JeffB

[billwilson3]

Maybe "rules" is putting it a little strongly. With so small a difference, maybe it just advises. lol

In any case, this shows that there is little performance value (at least in CPU bound apps) to C++ over VB.

[aio]

Can we not program in C without the use of pointers? Isn't this pointer is just a tool to speed up execution but something you can do without if you can be contented with a slower spped?

[JeffB]

Originally posted by billwilson3
Maybe "rules" is putting it a little strongly. With so small a difference, maybe it just advises. lol

In any case, this shows that there is little performance value (at least in CPU bound apps) to C++ over VB.

Oh yeah, I may have badly expressed, I mean that there is definitively a performance lost by using VB ( well it was VB5 ), but since it was just only calculations and that the C code was not using any pointer, it's still interesting to know, if you have a strong calculation program to do, that C might be a better choice. It's just a comment, and I know that with the computers of today, there is few program that require extremely optimized algorithm, as it was the case before. :)

JeffB

[Xeon]

Can we not program in C without the use of pointers? Isn't this pointer is just a tool to speed up execution but something you can do without if you can be contented with a slower spped?


As a so-called C++ programmer myself, I really am totally ashamed that I don't even what pointers are really for, even though I've been coding them for ages.
Unlike what AIO says, I don't think pointers have anything much to do with speed execution or something. ;)

If u C++ folks don't mind, maybe you can breifly tell me what pointers are for and their main usage?

This is 1001% embarrasing, u know. And no, please don't laugh. :):D

And AIO! Whether in C or C++, u MUST deal with pointers, because all the classes and functions in those C/C++ libraries makes use of pointers, and lots of them requires you to pass in pointer variables as function parameters etc. That's why. :):D
Even if you don't use those libraries, at some point in life, you still must use pointers in your code.

[Fierytycoon]

Xeon, I am inspired by your quote. Why, all my life I have been laughed at, beaten, and then shunned, having this process repeated over and over again wherever I go. But now, you have just refueled the box of candles that I had run out of. I can do it. I believe in myself! ...All right, I am just joking :D

Anyways, for my question: why use C when you can use C++? I don't understand. Isn't C++ just an extension of C? Then C++ must have all of the properties C has, plus more. If so, then how does C "rule"? Please excuse my ignorance.

Fierytycoon

[coolbiz]

Everyone knows C++ has performance advantage over VB (at least up to VB6). The use of pointers is one of the best feature of C++ (note: C does not support pointer right?). It is fast and really saves memory. Also, being able to be in control of every single line that you typed in is also a big plus for C/C++. And since Windows is based on C++ (and Assembly) gives C++ another advantage especially with data types and calling conventions.

But that does not mean VB is lame. VB does have quite a few advantages that really makes a life as a programmer seems more enjoyable. RAD is the biggest selling point of VB and you gotta admit it, it is true. Of course, in making it easy to use, it has to hide few lines of code (well .. not a few but a lot). Sometimes, we do need to use those hidden lines but .... :(

I do miss my time being with VC++ and once in a while I do go back to it when it comes to work with those "complicated" APIs that require something that VB can't handle. But with the light of VB.NET, I think I'll use C++ even less :)

-Cool Bizs

[Xeon]

:D Heh heh heh! Well, Fiery pal.......some programmers still use C cos' of traditional reasons. They think it's the only language created by God Himself. That's why!

On the other hand, some programmers, including those electrical engineers(those hardware developers), have to code their stuff in C. From what I know, those 82501 micro-controllers(if I remember correctly) requires the use of C. C++ isn't suitable.
That's why! :)

And no.......VB isn't lame. It's just that it's used for general purposes. But on the other hand, I hope VB.net isn't gonna surpass Visual C++ or anything. If it does, my C++ pals.......let's all carry rocket launchers and visit Bill Ga........u get the idea. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :mad: :D

[billwilson3]

++ (note: C does not support pointer right?).

Please, tell me you're joking. Right?

I can't believe how many posters appear to have no idea of what they are doing. Pointers are one of the most fundamental concepts of C/C++ programming.

I'd rate the C/C++ competance of anyone who doesn't understand their use at somewhere between low and non-existent. Certainly below the minimum level for employment.

[Goodz13]

You should have all of the above.

I have experience with VC++/C and VB.

I orgionally joined this fourm for the C++, but the Java section has become more usefull to me. My Language of choice has changed.

[Goodz13]

Anyways, for my question: why use C when you can use C++? I don't understand. Isn't C++ just an extension of C? Then C++ must have all of the properties C has, plus more. If so, then how does C "rule"? Please excuse my ignorance.

Some OS's don't have C++. Mind you the popular ones do, but I have a few clients that use an OS called THEOS (www.theos-software.com). There's a Basic and a C. Nothing else. I create Reservation Systems for Dumb Terminals on this OS. Although the Theos Server does support ASP, HTML, and CGI.

Most of the stuff you do is from the prompt, but they are comming out with a Desktop.

[Fierytycoon]

Thanks for the info guys.

Fierytycoon

[JamesSchumacher]

Nothing against VB - but it's for kiddies. :p



I guess if a C++ developer is a real man, is an assembly programmer a God? ;)



C/C++/Assembly Programmer,
James Bernard Schumacher III

P.S. - I can read any C++ program, but make me look at VB code and I'm lost. (Never written a single line at all.) I can understand it somewhat, but I couldn't write it. :rolleyes:

[Xeon]

Nothing against VB - but it's for kiddies.

U had better not let the VB programmers here remember your name! For all u know, your boss might force you to code something in VB one day, and while u're all panicky and such, u thought that u might be able to get help from the VB forum at Codeguru. But because of your statement, they get angry and refused to help you, and you can only go elsewhere.......and if word gets around that u made this statement, all the VB programmers in this world would boycott you and you can only get prepared to explain to your boss why u didn't finished your VB program! :D

I was something like you in the past, although my C++ isn't even 1/4 as great as ye'. But then, my school introduced VB......and......I had no choice but to humble myself and ask help from the VB programmers, and now, I'm a better and kinder person. :)


I guess if a C++ developer is a real man, is an assembly programmer a God?

A very experienced and expert VB programmer is a Real Man, while a very powerful and great C++ programmer is a Sage.
A legendary and skillful Assembly Language programmer is a Seraphi, whilst a marvellous and powerful Machine Language programmer(pure numbers) is the Lord...........God Himself. The Almighty. :o
Amen.

Alright, alright. I'm getting too extreme here. :D

[JamesSchumacher]

How VB would accomplish this....

I want to allow a derived class to use a variable from my base class, but not directly, and not expose the method as a public one that any code could call it given the object.

The answer in C++ is to make the member private, and have a protected member function that can be called by the derived class. (Private members of the base are included in a derived class, but they cannot be accessed directly. Only through a protected member function (or public). Friend classes can also use the protected member, but only the base class that has the private member can access it directly. Encapsulation anyone? ;) I take that back, with what I like to call 'hacks', any code can still access it - but not through normal means. reinterpret_cast, etc....)

VB is for kiddies. (Power wise - otherwise, it's not. Don't take me wrong. ;) )

And if they absolutely wanted something VB compatible, I'll write a COM object in C++ and they can call it in VB. I don't need to learn VB. :p (That's all VB.NET,C#, and VC++ 7.0 with the extensions turned on is - not true objects - they're COM objects. Hello super slow Windows of the future. :rolleyes: Not to mention platform compatibility just went out the door for sure - goodbye Windows. )

[aio]

Originally posted by JamesSchumacher
How VB would accomplish this....

I want to allow a derived class to use a variable from my base class, but not directly, and not expose the method as a public one that any code could call it given the object.

The answer in C++ is to make the member private, and have a protected member function that can be called by the derived class. (Private members of the base are included in a derived class, but they cannot be accessed directly. Only through a protected member function (or public). Friend classes can also use the protected member, but only the base class that has the private member can access it directly. Encapsulation anyone? ;) I take that back, with what I like to call 'hacks', any code can still access it - but not through normal means. reinterpret_cast, etc....)


Wow!!!

I don't know how to accomplish that in VB -- much more in C++ because my knowledge in the latter is very elementary.

And I may not be able to accomplish that forever because I only deal with real problems such as budgets, forecast, sales distribution, sales territory planning, etc. from the smallest brick to the corporate level. That's the beauty of VB. It allows kiddies like me to solve real problems directly. :cool:

I don't know why some of the real men hardly accomplished the same 5 years ago. Probably (sorry, just a guess) because, before they could deal with the real problem, they have, first, to " … make the member private, and have a protected member function that can be called by the derived class. (Private members of the base are included in a derived class, but they cannot be accessed directly. Only through a protected member function (or public). Friend classes can also use the protected member, but only the base class that has the private member can access it directly…." etc, etc.

:D :D :D

[aio]

... and of course, I would like also to solve highly technical problems someday. So I'm into C++ from time to time. See you in that forum later guys.

[Xeon]

From James:

The answer in C++ is to make the member private, and have a protected member function that can be called by the derived class.

Totally true, James! But that's 1 new trick I learnt! I mean, now I knowmore of what the 'protected' keyword is for!
(before this, I very very seldom use 'protected' members of a class at all)
Since u appear high, mighty, skillful and arrogant, I believe you've been programming in C++ for a long time, eh? After all, only the highest of programmers talk in such a manner. :):D

From AIO:

I don't know why some of the real men hardly accomplished the same 5 years ago. Probably (sorry, just a guess) because, before they could deal with the real problem, they have, first, to " … make the member private, and have a protected member function that can be called by the derived class. (Private members of the base are included in a derived class, but they cannot be accessed directly. Only through a protected member function (or public). Friend classes can also use the protected member, but only the base class that has the private member can access it directly…." etc, etc.

Totally true. Unlike in VB most of the time, in C++, u've to plan much more carefully and worry about lots of bugs and memory issues all the time. In VB, all these stuff are hidden, and it's much less likely to get bugs in a VB program than it is to get in a Visual C++ program.
In VB, it's like swimming in a swimming pool with 600 of the world's most skillful life-guards watching you and preparing to save you should you show any signs of drowning.

In Visual C++, it's like swimming in the Pacific Ocean at night with just a vest and a pair of boxers. It's night, and u can't see clearly. Sharks too. Beware. And oh. In case you get too tired or leg cramps, u're dead. And not to forget, the storm and the waves. Terrible, I say. :rolleyes:

But one great thing about Visual C++ is that if you survived, u'll be well respected in programming parties. That's why! :D:D

[aio]

Xeon's signature:
"If you're a real man, please do some soul-searching. Have you ever brush the hair of a **** for her after she has bathed? Have you ever gave her suprises often? If not, then do so now. Cherish them and love them. They need you." - Xeon

Yes I did Xeon pal. That's because don't deal too much on bugs and memory issues. ;) ;) ;)

[Xeon]

Yes I did Xeon pal. That's because don't deal too much on bugs and memory issues.

That's a lucky guy, AIO! :):D
Aye~! If I had code in VB from the start, I would probably be giving babies to many a **** by now. :D:D:D
Heh heh heh!:D

[JeffB]

Originally posted by JamesSchumacher
How VB would accomplish this....

I want to allow a derived class to use a variable from my base class, but not directly, and not expose the method as a public one that any code could call it given the object.

The answer in C++ is to make the member private, and have a protected member function that can be called by the derived class. (Private members of the base are included in a derived class, but they cannot be accessed directly. Only through a protected member function (or public). Friend classes can also use the protected member, but only the base class that has the private member can access it directly. Encapsulation anyone? ;) I take that back, with what I like to call 'hacks', any code can still access it - but not through normal means. reinterpret_cast, etc....)

VB is for kiddies. (Power wise - otherwise, it's not. Don't take me wrong. ;) )


You can't do that in VB. But, you can use derived class, but it is not as well as in C++ language. Let's say that C++ encapsulation, derivation, polyphormism and all those class systems are the betters on the market; you cannot do as well in any other language, including java and Delphi...

JeffB

[JamesSchumacher]

I've only been programming for 2.5 years, and never taken a single course in programming. I'm self taught.

It's just whatever I do, I put effort into learning. I don't program for a living, but could if I wanted to. In fact, I'm saving for college over the next 2 years so I can get a degree and be a meterologist/computer scientist.

But, as you said Xeon - you don't have to worry about that stuff in VB, you do in C++. But I don't worry about it, because 99% of the time, any bug I have produced has been a simple typo. (and == instead of an =, etc...) I just simply feel that limiting capability - and trying to 'protect' a programmer from mistakes, instead of trying to teach them how to be a better programmer, is the wrong course of action. Stick with the VB's, C#'s, and all the 'protective' languages and you'll be stuck there. I just feel it's people like me that work with C/C++/Assembly that will be the future OS writers/etc... And that is why I say Microsoft will fall to Linux eventually. (Not because of open source, but because of the way they are grooming their future clients) - Fact of the matter is, people don't like upgrading hardware. And MS has already written much of the .NET OS in C#, which runs at 60% the speed of C++. If this continues, a Windows OS will need a much faster CPU (and more RAM) to compete with other OS'es. Plus cover ups in bugs seems to always be another layer added on top to hide the bug, instead of fixing it directly. It multiplies by trying to create a user base highly dependent on the protective languages. Plus, we've already seen that the internet age will never replace the importance of the desktop (although for years people said it would. Even that Java would be the killer of C++ because of it, but we all see and know Java is not the be all or end all - and it's not as big as it once was - just look around the net) But, since this is going off topic, I'll leave it right there.

[Xeon]

Oh I see! Nice information and nice debates, James!

Anyway, I really hope Microsoft could come to their senses and stop going around with this .net and XML thingy.

I was wondering : if they had continue with the old ways of Windows programming and had put all their energy into upgrading the Win32 API to Win64 instead of .net, the world would be a much better plavce to program in! :)


But I don't worry about it, because 99% of the time, any bug I have produced has been a simple typo. (and == instead of an =, etc...)

From what u said, u must be a talented programmer. :D
For my case, 99.9% of those serious and tough-to-find bugs are related to heaps and memory management issues. :)
That's why!

Anyway, I guess Microsoft is trading speed with program interopability.(C++, Java, C# and VB programs can all talk with one another as if they're best friends and such)

[aio]

Originally posted by Xeon
Anyway, I guess Microsoft is trading speed with program interopability.(C++, Java, C# and VB programs can all talk with one another as if they're best friends and such)

I also feel that's what's happening. After all, what's a few seconds delay in comparison with the flexibility that interoperability offers.

[Xeon]

Ah well, AIO.......but the thing is that as time goes by and the world code programs according to these darn and low standards, performance will be worse and worse over time. In fact, the more interopable programs become, the slower the speed.(it seems)
COM components can be slow, mind you.(just an example)

After all, the fact that a C++ program can talk to a VB program defies the law of the programming languages world : it's not natural at all, and if it's even possible, then really artificial coding techniques and dirty coder must have been used in order for that to happen.

Pals, let's all give up Windows and pick up a book on "C++ for Linux". :):D

[Platinum Plus]

Originally posted by Xeon


U had better not let the VB programmers here remember your name! For all u know, your boss might force you to code something in VB one day, and while u're all panicky and such, u thought that u might be able to get help from the VB forum at Codeguru. But because of your statement, they get angry and refused to help you, and you can only go elsewhere.......and if word gets around that u made this statement, all the VB programmers in this world would boycott you and you can only get prepared to explain to your boss why u didn't finished your VB program!

Yep, James, I'll remember you :D

[Xeon]

Heh heh heh!
Yes, yes........put his name down onto your bed and recite his name 20 times per hour.
Tell all your VB pals all about him and tell them to pass on the news. Set up web sites and forums to discuss about him. Get talented guys to write a book to tell the planet about him.
To ensure total boycotting, create mugs, t-shirts and mouse-pads that encourages boycotting of James.
Get the US government to fund you so that u can set up statelites all over space to track his actions, so that we know when he registers under another user to ask a VB question.
:)

But the way, Platinum Plus.....it seems that 100% of your posts are all crap, eh? Whoa! Xeon Version 2.0, code-named Platinum Plus???!!! :D:D:D:D

[Platinum Plus]

Originally posted by JamesSchumacher
Stick with the VB's, C#'s, and all the 'protective' languages and you'll be stuck there. I just feel it's people like me that work with C/C++/Assembly that will be the future OS writers/etc... And that is why I say Microsoft will fall to Linux eventually.

Assy, ML, C, C++, Fortran and I think the one who is quick to the solutions wins the day.

[Xeon]

Yeah, Platinum Plus is right.
U gotta use the right tools for the right job, just like the way u get the right **** to give you the right excitment at the right ambience and time and place, right? :)

It's all about using the RIGHT stuff. :):D:D

[Platinum Plus]

But the way, Platinum Plus.....it seems that 100% of your posts are all crap, eh? Whoa! Xeon Version 2.0, code-named Platinum Plus???!!! :D:D:D:D

Maybe crap but not offensive :cool:

[aio]

By the way:

1. In VC++, what will happen if there is no MFC?
2. Everytime you need a button, you have to call API (if no MFC)?
3. Can non-Microsoft (non-Visual) C++ use MFC?

[Xeon]

From Platinum :
Maybe crap but not offensive

And MY posts ARE NOT offensive either! :p:p:p:D:)

From AIO :
1. In VC++, what will happen if there is no MFC?
2. Everytime you need a button, you have to call API (if no MFC)?
3. Can non-Microsoft (non-Visual) C++ use MFC?


Interesting questions, AIO! I salute ye'!

1) In Visual C++(the Tool of all Tools), if you wanna create a Windows program and there's no MFC, u're dead. U can give up your job as a programmer and sell jellies or gurls(or both) instead. Kinda sad.....but.....

Nah! Just kidding! Well, in Visual C++.....if there's no MFC, you'll have to work with the Win32 API directly.
But in my opinion, there's really not much of a syntax difference or anything, cos' MFC is just a thin "wrapper" around the Win32 API.
The name of most of the GUI functions are even the same, as well as the type of parameters etc.

2) Everytime u need a control(buttons, like you say) in Visual C++ without MFC, u need to call the Win32 API Create(...) or CreateEx(...) function and specify the type of control u wanna create.(from combo boxes to push-buttons).
But in Visual C++, it's very very very very very natural to call Win32 API functions, unlike in VB.

In Visual C++, u just call the function directly, without the need to explicitly add those Declare Private Sub NameOfAPI_Function(.........................................) stuff for each API function you use.
At the most, u just code something like #include <xxx.h> etc and u'll be able to use all functions belonging to that catergory or class. :D

3) No........from what I know, non-Visual C++ IDEs cannot use MFC. MFC comes only with Visual C++, and even if you try to copy the MFC files for use with a non-Visual C++ compiler, it wouldn't work, cos' there's -1000000000000% support for MFC in most of them.
Borland C++, however, has it's own set of class library equivalent to MFC, called the OWL.(Object Windows Library)

:D:)

[Mick]

Originally posted by aio


I also feel that's what's happening. After all, what's a few seconds delay in comparison with the flexibility that interoperability offers.



Uhh. What's a few seconds in delay you ask. It means the world if your writing device drivers specifically FileSystem filter hook drivers that communicate with VC++ apps via LPC.

Also real-time or near real-time data display. But there are tons of situations where you need speed. And while using ASM to get you around that, who wants to write line after line after line of ASM until you lose your sight when MickeySoft should leave well enough alone.

[Xeon]

Hi there Mick! Well, anyway, regarding ASM(Assembly Language), do u know anything about it?
It's very mysterious to me. Is there any branch/flow statements like in C++?(if...else...else if...) and is there even any thing like functions?

If not, wouldn't it be impossible to work with???? God!!!!
I can't imagine anyone trying to use pure ASM to create a simple button control!!!!!!!! :eek: :eek::eek: :eek::eek: :eek:

[Yves M]

There are functions and flow control statements in assembler, they are actually quite powerful. I mean, everything that you write in C++ is compiled into ASM anyways (maybe directly machine-code, but that's "equivalent" to ASM), so everything you can do with C++, you can also do it with ASM.

Creating a button control in ASM would be a waste though. But coding the slow parts of your program in optimized ASM will always remain useful, even in 2010 ;)

[Xeon]

Oh I see! Thanks a lot, Yves!
By the way, it seems that you've just become the "superset" version of Simon666. U're Yves777. Why?
Cos' your total posts are at 777!!!!!!!
Whoa! Nice number! :):D

Anyway, from what I know, coding in ASM is already total ****. If you go down any further from ASM, u'll meet the Abyss : Machine Language. I've heard that in the past, coders code in Machine Language directly!!!!!!!
Just plain numbers, which is 1000 times worse than ASM!

Can u beat that??!!!

Here's 1 test u can do to see if which programmer is actually God Himself :

Ask him to code Microsoft Office XP entirely in Machine Language. :D

[aio]

Originally posted by Xeon
. . .
3) No........from what I know, non-Visual C++ IDEs cannot use MFC. MFC comes only with Visual C++, and even if you try to copy the MFC files for use with a non-Visual C++ compiler, it wouldn't work, cos' there's -1000000000000% support for MFC in most of them.
Borland C++, however, has it's own set of class library equivalent to MFC, called the OWL.(Object Windows Library)

:D:)
Awk. I have the impression that one of powers of C++ (visual and non-visual) is being able to access libraries such as MFC. Or put the other way around, an impression that these libraries (MFC, OWL, and the likes) are open to any language that support a certain protocol or something.

[Yves M]

Well, you could probably use MFC with some other c++ compiler, but it would not be as simple as from within VC++ and you would not be able to sell your application, since you don't necessarily have a licence for the MFC dlls.

Anyway, from what I know, coding in ASM is already total ****. If you go down any further from ASM, u'll meet the Abyss : Machine Language. I've heard that in the past, coders code in Machine Language directly!!!!!!!
Just plain numbers, which is 1000 times worse than ASM!


The founder of my company wrote a Word Processor with syntax highlighting, correct word breaking and some other niceties entirely in Machine Language by looking up the OPCODES in a big table.

[Mick]

Plenty of books (free tutorials) out there for you Xeon ;) If you don't know ASM (which I find hard to believe you seem fairly knowledgable in your posts) then I suggest at least getting a working knowledge of it. It will improve your debugging skills at the minimum.

I still remember going to a 'Introduction to .NET' seminar and all I heard was VB this and VB that. So of course I piped up and asked what about VC++. Answer umm well dead silence of course. And the speaker had the nerve to say, well yea you with .NET you will have a performance impact. And he acted like that was ok, like the whole world is just f'ing groovy man. Lets put some more layers in. Do not attempt to adjust the horizontal we have you under our control. Zombie coders from Microsoft h_e_l_l your next B rated movie. Staring Bill Gates as the evil world ruler with his army of VB and VC coders pent on the worlds destruction thru inefficient software.

I got no beef with VB just you know don't hang VC out to dry.

[Xeon]

From Yves M:
The founder of my company wrote a Word Processor with syntax highlighting, correct word breaking and some other niceties entirely in Machine Language by looking up the OPCODES in a big table.

1 possibility : He is God. Need we say more????
My! Yves! U're totally lucky to be in the presence of God! Ohh......u must be the descended Michale the ArchAngel!!!!!!
Ooooo!!!!!!! My respects to you, good Lord! Ohhh.......what do I say in front on the ArchAngel????!!!!!! Ummmm......errr......no no.......Lord.....I haven't been doing anything bad since the day I was born.....eerr.......I did tell naughty lies quite a number of times, but they were all good lies, Lord. And errr......no..I didn't kill or rape.......I only care for gurls......and......errr.....:)

But seriously, it's crazy!!!!!! First, the most basic part about a word processor : the main(overall) window that contains the toolbar/edit control etc.
That's already impossible to create! Imagine drawing the title bar, the borders........it's already gonna take a mere mortal 20 months at least with ML!!!!!! Then, next, you've the minimize, maximize, close button and all their mechanisms.............another 10 months, at least. Next, the rich edit control.......coding a very basic rich edit control from scratch will take any programmer at least 60 months, with all the message maps and basic mechanisms included. Next, syntax highlighting and word-breaking and such.......that'll mean another 15 months.....and when u take into account the toolbars and such......that'll take another 30 months at least. Plus, BUGS. That can easily cost anything from 1 to 4 years.
Hmmm...........your boss must be a 99 year old un-married man, I bet. :):D

From Mick_2002:
Plenty of books (free tutorials) out there for you Xeon If you don't know ASM (which I find hard to believe you seem fairly knowledgable in your posts) then I suggest at least getting a working knowledge of it. It will improve your debugging skills at the minimum

Thanks for boosting my ego, Mick! But I'm poor and have no money for you. :D
But no........I'm not knowledgeable at all. Perhaps I am, compared to 3 year old li'l gurls who play with cute li'l dolls. :)

But then, is it even practical to learn ASM???? I mean, in this world nowadays, we all code in languages higher than ASM, starting from C to Visual Basic.net.
It would be kinda useless and impratical. I guess it's better to use the time to sit next to a **** while watching TV, and stroke her hair.(the hair on the head, not elsewhere. please.) and arouse her. Ohhhhh.........ooooo..............:D


I still remember going to a 'Introduction to .NET' seminar and all I heard was VB this and VB that. So of course I piped up and asked what about VC++.

Yes, yes. The only thing Microsoft ever know now is : We VB this and VB that. These guys really suck, I tell you.


And the speaker had the nerve to say, well yea you with .NET you will have a performance impact. And he acted like that was ok, like the whole world is just f'ing groovy man.

VB this and VB that. VB up and VB down. VB west and VB east. It's all about VB.net nowadays. Darn!
In the past, MSDN magazines used to be filled with really cool C++ stuff and Win32 API(C-style) articles. Now, all u ever see is VB.net, ASP.net and variants of XML stuff. It SUCKS!

The only true C++ stuff u see in the entire filthy magazine is the few pathetic articles, titled "C++ Q & A".

Occasionally, I was thinking that it might be great if Linux buck up it's efforts and provide a good API so that more programmers will program and create programs for the Linux OS.
More importantly, make development as smooth as in the Windows OS. I mean, just pay $$$ and u get the development tools, like in the case of Visual Studio. But in Linux, if I'm not wrong, u have to do some complex license agreement or something. Aye.........

I really hate the idea of those new Microsoft technologies, starting from COM to Managed C++.
These are just very artificial add-ons, the truth is.
Before we even know of such stuff, we don't even need them!

It's like : if a tree fells in a forest and u wasn't there, will u even hear a sound?
No.

Someone please sponsor me and Mick and some coders here with tickets and hotel accomodation to the Microsoft HQ in Redmond. We plan to protest in all our glory of being naked outside the dreaded company.

The slogans are as follows :

---Down with VB.net!!!!
---Rid Artificial Coding!!!!
---We want C++! We want C++! We want C++!
---Give us back the old days!!!!
---God destroy Microsoft!!!!!
---The Lord is with us! Microsoft DOWN! Microsoft DOWN!

Have these glorious slogans written down on a very large cardboard with white background and black markers.(black fonts)

[JamesSchumacher]

Originally posted by Yves M:

Occasionally, I was thinking that it might be great if Linux buck up it's efforts and provide a good API so that more programmers will program and create programs for the Linux OS.
More importantly, make development as smooth as in the Windows OS. I mean, just pay $$$ and u get the development tools, like in the case of Visual Studio. But in Linux, if I'm not wrong, u have to do some complex license agreement or something. Aye.........

I really hate the idea of those new Microsoft technologies, starting from COM to Managed C++.
These are just very artificial add-ons, the truth is.
Before we even know of such stuff, we don't even need them!

It's like : if a tree fells in a forest and u wasn't there, will u even hear a sound?
No.

Someone please sponsor me and Mick and some coders here with tickets and hotel accomodation to the Microsoft HQ in Redmond. We plan to protest in all our glory of being naked outside the dreaded company.

The slogans are as follows :

---Down with VB.net!!!!
---Rid Artificial Coding!!!!
---We want C++! We want C++! We want C++!
---Give us back the old days!!!!
---God destroy Microsoft!!!!!
---The Lord is with us! Microsoft DOWN! Microsoft DOWN!

Have these glorious slogans written down on a very large cardboard with white background and black markers.(black fonts)

I hear you. COM is an a pathetic attempt at making an OS object aware. You want the problem fixed? Write the OS in C++, do that by writing a self sustaining assembler/compiler that relies on no OS to run. Specificially designed to write an OS. It could be done, to install Linux you have to use a bootstrapped GCC to compile it. You'll never see it from Microsoft, but I can almost guarantee it will happen for another OS in the future. (If noone else does it, 10 - 15 years down the road I will.) But I mean a whole editing environment (the IDE, etc...) and not just compiler/assembler. Only disadvantage to that, is the whole thing would have to be written to the particular CPU it's going on. And that would require writing a compiler/assembler for ANOTHER OS that would 'cross compile' for that purpose. (I wouldn't do it in ML - NFW. The fact you'd have to know the architecture and it's ML and the definition of the assembly instructions (in order to map these to the correct ML output) it would be much easier to break it apart and just write that cross compiler/assembler. Then it could 'logically' written.) Devil's advocate - if it were today - write the 'cross compiler' on some type of X86 (on a Linux or Windows OS, so you have an easier job on the development environment) - learn the architecture of 'pick a CPU' and write the code necessary to implement the compiler/assembler. Then, after probably 3 years or so after all the bugs are worked out, you have an independent compiler/assembler for a particular CPU type. Plus, that would give hardware manufacturers some incentive to create ML compatible machines. ;) I'm only turning 22 next Wednesday, and have 2 1/2 years of C/C++ and some assembly experience (I ain't near as good at assembly as I am C/C++, but I am knowledgable) - I couldn't do it right now, but in 10 - 15 years I will be experienced enough to do so. Knowing how young I am, and already amassed as much as I have without a single course in my life - I know I have unlimited potential. I've been told that all my life, only just recently began tapping it. I ain't gonna waste the opportunity.

[Xeon]

This is crazy, James! :)
(by the way, all those quote belongs to me, not Yves M.......look carefully again:))

The thing is : u're a genius! I mean, I can tell u that no one with 2.5 years of programming experience give so much complex details as you can! Definetly, u must have lots of programming knowledge beforehand. Wow! Even folks who have programmed for 3 - 5 years don't seem to be that knowledgeable as you!

Something is wrong........1 confirmation : did u write programs for IBM at age 11????!!!!! Are you from the US??? Does your real name have a 'Gates' behind it? Are your parents in law-related jobs??? Wow! :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

[coolbiz]

Just wondering, for C++ coders, how long did it take you to be an "expert" in programming for Windows? All your life? And how much time did you have to spend to get to the level that you are right now? 24x7?

And stop using "Can VB write a device driver? C++ can ..." Duh! VB is not meant for that type of applications. It is meant for RAD! When performance and speed can be negotiated why bother using a complex language such as C++ to write something very simple!

And why the b****ing about VB.NET. M$ is merely trying to get the attention of the VB programmers to switch to a much better language now. VB has been their step-child for a very long time and when .NET was born, M$ knew that this will boost up the spirit of VB coders out there.

M$ has not metioned anything (not that I know of) about planning to stop supporting VC++. So what is the problem? Heck! we all know that they can never do that. The OS was built partly with that language. So if you're worry about your job security, don't!

:( Cool Bizs

[Xeon]

From CoolBiz :

Just wondering, for C++ coders, how long did it take you to be an "expert" in programming for Windows? All your life? And how much time did you have to spend to get to the level that you are right now? 24x7?

Well, u definetly have to spend lots of time to become a great Visual C++ programmer writing programs for Windows. I was thinking, if I had spent 2 years all my life and direct all my energy to Visual Basic instead, I would have been a very powerful VB programmer now. :)
Although my C++ skills and Visual C++ skills are better than my VB's, compared to the majority of Visual C++ programmers out there, it's pretty poor.
But then, most C++ programmers choose C++ cos' :

1) it boosts your ego
2) it's one the most powerful language ever developed, in terms of speed and power and performance, as well as development time. Development time????!!!! Yes!
Like they say, C++ is a marriage of high level and low level languages.
The development time of writing a program in C++ is not as fast as in VB, but it's certainly much faster than in ASM or ML.
As for speed and power, although ML and ASM is faster than C++, C++ is much faster than all the other languages like VB and Java put together. So, in terms of C++, it absorbs the good and the bad.

U see, in VB, u get fast and rapid development time. But u suffer when it comes to performance and application speed, especially in critical and large programs.
In ASM and ML, sure. It's real darn blazing enough to shatter the universe. But the development time needed is Eternity. Let's face it.
Although C++ has it's own drawbacks, it certainly has lots of pros too. :)

And stop using "Can VB write a device driver? C++ can ..." Duh! VB is not meant for that type of applications. It is meant for RAD! When performance and speed can be negotiated why bother using a complex language such as C++ to write something very simple!

Cool down, CoolBiz! I know u're a truly remarkable VB programmer. Besides, I know u did helped me a lot with my VB school questions a few weeks ago! :)
Well, C++ programmers, when they first started learning C++, they start to have this mindset of always wanting the fastest and the sleekest. I know that cos' my main language is C++ too. In C++ books, u can always see the most extreme algorithms and the most number-crunching techniques etc.
That's why C++ coders always refer you to those examples of device drivers and other speed-critical programs and applications etc. :)

And why the b****ing about VB.NET. M$ is merely trying to get the attention of the VB programmers to switch to a much better language now. VB has been their step-child for a very long time and when .NET was born, M$ knew that this will boost up the spirit of VB coders out there.

The reason is.......if you ever think about the fact that end-users want fast programs, then........but then, you have your own views. I guess, u're right in your own way. ;)


M$ has not metioned anything (not that I know of) about planning to stop supporting VC++. So what is the problem? Heck! we all know that they can never do that. The OS was built partly with that language. So if you're worry about your job security, don't!

Well, they never said they're gonna stop supporting C++, but it's getting dangerous. First, unlike in the past, they have not been actively updating the precious MFC library. There's a few add-ons and bug-fixes in the MFC library that comes with Visual C++.net, but it's all useless and tiny.

Currently, the OS is written with C and C++ and ASM in some parts, not with Visual C++. I don't think they use Visual C++ to create the OS. They must be using some lower level tools.
Anyway, I have a feeling that soon, they'll be using C# or even VB.net to write the OS.........after all........these 2 are THEIR OWN technologies. Microsoft is always heading into this direction : they acquire technologies from others and make it their own. If not, they build their own technologies from scratch and corner the market. :):):):)

[JLafontaine]

I have to go with Visual C++. I have tried to learn VB once but I simply HATE it. I HATE almost everything about it, I hate the syntax, the way it cannot hadle complex data structures. You can't even build a simple componet with it, the simplest you can get is an Active X. It generates baloon code. Dont get me wrong, I'm not starting a war here, some of my best friends are VB programmers (unfortunately), and we get along well. ;)

Look a the pool results, Visual C++ simply rules!

"Vive le compilateur Visual C++"

french for
"Long Lives the Visual C++ Compiler"

Can someone translate this in other languages pls.

[aio]

JLafontaine:
I have to go with Visual C++. I have tried to learn VB once but I simply HATE it. I HATE almost everything about it, I hate the syntax, the way it cannot hadle complex data structures. You can't even build a simple componet with it, the simplest you can get is an Active X. It generates baloon code. Dont get me wrong, I'm not starting a war here, some of my best friends are VB programmers (unfortunately), and we get along well.

Look a the pool results, Visual C++ simply rules!

I think, the reason why some VC++/C++ programmers hate VB or some VB programmers hate VC++/C++ is not really related to the language or the capabilities but rather to the type of applications that a particular programmer mostly handles. Jlafontaine for example may be dealing a lot with problems on components, devices and similar objects. VB really sucks in that area.

May I ask therefore, what problem domain do we usually dwell into? I'm sure the real picture will easily appear as to why VB or why VC/C++?

As for me, I simply deal with marketing and sales, research and related info services requirements. Not device, component, not hardware access and no system's level call. That's simply the reason why I love VB more than VC/C++.

I don’t really hate VC/C++. In fact I am learning it little by little. But, unless I am threatened of losing my job unless I learn to deal with components, devices and systems' calls, I don’t think I will easily switch side.

Comparing VC/C++ and VB is like comparing fighters and bombers. Technically, both can do the fighting and bombing. But if the objective is control of the sky, why use bombers? On the other hand, if the objective is the ground (as the usual case in winning the war), why rely only on fighters?

Only by substantially discussing the business goal/objective first, then that's probably the only way we can easily tell which among the two is the best programming language.



JLafontaine:
"Vive le compilateur Visual C++"

french for
"Long Lives the Visual C++ Compiler"

Can someone translate this in other languages pls.

"Mabuhay ang Visual Basic:D:D:D(C++) kompayler."

[JamesSchumacher]

Originally posted by Xeon
This is crazy, James! :)
(by the way, all those quote belongs to me, not Yves M.......look carefully again:))

The thing is : u're a genius! I mean, I can tell u that no one with 2.5 years of programming experience give so much complex details as you can! Definetly, u must have lots of programming knowledge beforehand. Wow! Even folks who have programmed for 3 - 5 years don't seem to be that knowledgeable as you!

Something is wrong........1 confirmation : did u write programs for IBM at age 11????!!!!! Are you from the US??? Does your real name have a 'Gates' behind it? Are your parents in law-related jobs??? Wow! :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

Thing is, I just have a rapid thinking mind, and was working part time during that period. With a 180+ I.Q. I can learn things quite fast and add onto that I have a great capacity for knowledge. I just pushed myself - that's all it takes.

Answers to your questions: (For the :p of it)

1 - No, I didn't program on IBM CPU's at age 11.
2 - Yes, I am from the United States, from the heartland of America, the land of farmer's daughters, the great state of Iowa.
3 - No, my real name is James Bernard Schumacher III.
4 - No, my parents are not in law related jobs - my mom works in hard labor, and my dad's a truck driver.

Not bad for high school dropout (due to life issues) that later got a GED. Although all through elementary and middle school, ITBS and other stuff was pretty much always in the 99% 'tile. In 5th grade, I won my school's spelling bee, etc...

And yes, I do have a life. I work a full time job, and my hobbies include cars, video games, and other stuff. Right now I'm just saving for college, so I can get a degree as a Computer Scientist/Meterologist. All that and I have a mass knowledge of psychology as well - that being just due to life experience. And all of it is held together by a strong spiritual belief in God.

[Xeon]

WHAT?????!!!!! 180 I.Q.???????? That'd blazingly CRAZY!!!!!!!
If I'm not wrong, Einstein's I.Q. was around 200++, and yours is 180?????? U're almost the new Einstein!

Li'l wonder why u're talking like those industry experts with just 2.5 years of experience. Crazy! Wild! WOW! :eek: :eek:

And oh....Iowa?? That's the heartland of America??? The more countryside-like face of America? I thought only certain parts of Missouri and the Kansas state are more like the countryside.

And as u say, Iowa is the land of farmer's daughters, so that means.......there must be lots of cute farm gurls for you to enjoy and such........wow........cool! :D:):)

[aio]

This is a bit off-topic:

I have a copy of MSDN and some of my friends don't have. It is illegal to make a CD copy and give (distribute) to them?

[JamesSchumacher]

Originally posted by Xeon
WHAT?????!!!!! 180 I.Q.???????? That'd blazingly CRAZY!!!!!!!
If I'm not wrong, Einstein's I.Q. was around 200++, and yours is 180?????? U're almost the new Einstein!

Li'l wonder why u're talking like those industry experts with just 2.5 years of experience. Crazy! Wild! WOW! :eek: :eek:

And oh....Iowa?? That's the heartland of America??? The more countryside-like face of America? I thought only certain parts of Missouri and the Kansas state are more like the countryside.

And as u say, Iowa is the land of farmer's daughters, so that means.......there must be lots of cute farm gurls for you to enjoy and such........wow........cool! :D:):)

No, go north of Des Moines - between Ankeny and Ames, or north of Ames. There's plenty of country side. Go any direction away from Des Moines pretty much and you'll see countryside.

And yes, there are ALOT of cute girls running around (and yes some ARE farmer's daughters. :D )

Then again, most people outside of Iowa just see Iowa on the interstate or Des Moines when they fly in. There is plenty of countryside in this state. (And it's great for chasing, not as good as Oklahoma, Kansas, and the Texas panhandle, but when those meso's come through Iowa - there's plenty of room out here.)

Even Des Moines is small enough that on a day when a big band's tickets go on sale, there are only a handful to several people waiting for the doors to open. Truth be told, only place I'd probably live other than here, is in Oklahoma. (Seeking being a Computer Scientists/Meterologist, and having a big fascination with tornadic activity - there's no wonder why. :cool: )

To keep this on topic - I think a better question to have asked instead of VC++ vs. VB, is a C++ vs. VB vs. Delphi vs. Assembly vs. Java vs. etc.... Talk about languages instead of development environments. Because truth be told, VC++ vs. VB is all about Microsoft - not my cup of tea. (although 99% of all my programming has been done on Windows. Not for much longer though - ;) Although I did go to CompUSA to buy a new compiler yesterday - they didn't have Codewarrior, BC++ Builder, or the VC++ .NET. They did have the whole Visual Studio.NET pro, but I don't want all the rest of the 'crap' - just VC++. Although the guy when I asked him if he had Visual Studio.NET in, and I told him I just wanted the VC++, he came back with VB.NET and I told him "That's not what I want." ) Although I was *tempted* to shell out the $500 bucks for the whole studio - just because it would give me the pro version of VC++ and I'm sick and tired of VC6. Can someone tell me if the pro version is only available in the entire studio? Or can it be ordered separately? Because if I can only get it through the entire studio - I'll shell out the $500 next payday. (I can't deal with standard - in VC6 optimizations weren't in standard. And I am not shelling out the $ for the enterprise version - they can stick that up their @$$.)

[billwilson3]

I have a copy of MSDN and some of my friends don't have. It is illegal to make a CD copy and give (distribute) to them?

Yes very illeagal.

[Yves M]

James, have a look on the online resellers, I think it's available separately.

[aio]

Originally posted by billwilson3


Yes very illeagal.

I thought it's ok since most of its information can be downloaded from msn

[billwilson3]

Actually all the information is available for free on the MSDN web site. But, still illeagal to distribute the CDs.

Go figure.

A universal MSDN subscription (the last I heard) is $2500 per year!!

[Yves M]

Well, with an MSDN subscription you also get all of the MS programs thrown in. You get all the operating systems, the development tools, Office etc..

[billwilson3]

Yes, its indispensible to a developer who works on any thing other than a single platforms. It's pretty hard to say you are prepared to do Windows development work if you do not have a subscription.

On the other hand, its awfully expensive. I've never actually owned one myself, but have always had access to one through my clients (its usually a requirement in my contract that they provide it).

[aio]

Originally posted by billwilson3
... (its usually a requirement in my contract that they provide it).

:)

I never thought of this. I'll give it a try. Thanks for the idea.

[aio]

JamesSchumacher:
…
To keep this on topic - I think a better question to have asked instead of VC++ vs. VB, is a C++ vs. VB vs. Delphi vs. Assembly vs. Java vs. etc.... Talk about languages instead of development environments. Because truth be told, VC++ vs. VB is all about Microsoft - not my cup of tea.
…


Well, the topic I have in mind when I created this poll is not necessarily programming language stat in general but more on my observation about the activities of posts and threads in this site. I am a VB man and also trying to learn C++. And since I deal mostly with VB men too, I got the impression that there are more VB men than C++ men. I was therefore amazed to see VC/C posts and threads outnumber VB by 4 to 1. Really? There are 4 VC/C++ programmers for every VB programmer?

But then I realized I have more bugging questions studying in C++ than in Basic. So I thought maybe the statistics represent only the questions and answers -- not the real ratio between VC/C++ programmers and VB programmers.

Check the poll stat. It's not really 4 to 1. That's simply the intention.

[Yves M]

But then I realized I have more bugging questions studying in C++ than in Basic. So I thought maybe the statistics represent only the questions and answers -- not the real ratio between VC/C++ programmers and VB programmers.


*jokingly*

That is why they say that VB is a language for beginners, not so many bugging questions ;)

[aio]

Originally posted by Yves M


*jokingly*

That is why they say that VB is a language for beginners, not so many bugging questions ;)

But look at Xeon. He started with C++ :p then later VB :D



Anyway, VB may have already progressed into modular to structured to object based to OOP to whatever term you may use to modern and advanced programming methods but it cant get away from it's trademark as being the language suited only for beginners. It's probably because the name itself is "Basic" and the word "Beginner" even banners in that name.

Look at Fortran. The syntax of Basic and Fotran is probably 80% to 90% similar, yet, no one (or very rare is ever there is one) is labeling Fortran as a beginner's language. If you have tried programming in dBase, Foxbase, Foxpro, Clipper and/or Cobol, you could probably tell that these are more simple languages too, yet, I haven't heard anyone calling them as beginner's languages.

Look at Pascal. Because of its humble beginning as a teaching language, it has not completely extinguished its label as a language suited only for students. Not until it has become Modula, Delphi and/or Ada. That, despite the fact, that Pascal has nearly matched C in terms of power.

Probably time to rename Basic? (Come on, suggest a name)

C on the other hand had its high profile beginning as "designed for systems programming", "tools for creating compilers" or, as one of the book I have read described it as "the language designed for real programmers."

Maybe the rules on "first impressions last" applies to programming lanuages.:)

[Xeon]

From AIO :


But look at Xeon. He started with C++ then later VB


Nay, AIO pal! I had no choice but to do VB every now and then, cos' it's part of my school subject. No offense, but it kinda sucks. :):)

[aio]

Hey Xeon Pal. You're back. Codeguru is a little anaemic without you.:)

They should know that!

[JamesSchumacher]

Thanks to C/C++/ASM, VB has a compiler. ;)

If it wasn't for computer ML, we wouldn't have assembly.

If it wasn't for assembly, we wouldn't have C and C++.

And other languages wouldn't exist if it weren't for C and C++ for the majority (and assembly on some parts).

I know MS didn't do Visual Basic in assembly (maybe 2% of it at best) - but then again MS is sloppy at C/C++, just look at MFC source, or any code example from MSDN. :rolleyes: I guess that's why they wrote C#, considering I heard 60% of XP and future OS'es will be on this new language. (Guess their lazy, and don't care for performance) - (Even their CRT implementation is bloated)

[Xeon]

Thanks a lot, AIO! Yes, yes.....I heard that some of those regular posters actually cried while I was away for the past few days.(got banned)
Thank you so much! :):D:D

But anyway, James.......

1) Do they create Visual C++ in ASM? It must be a real pain, cos' look at those GUI stuff in the Visual C++ IDE.......yucks.

2) Also, James......do u know what they use to create the VB IDE? If they didn't do it in ML or ASM, maybe they used Visual C++?
If that's the case, then I feel as if I'm God. :):D

[JamesSchumacher]

Originally posted by Xeon
Thanks a lot, AIO! Yes, yes.....I heard that some of those regular posters actually cried while I was away for the past few days.(got banned)
Thank you so much! :):D:D

But anyway, James.......

1) Do they create Visual C++ in ASM? It must be a real pain, cos' look at those GUI stuff in the Visual C++ IDE.......yucks.

2) Also, James......do u know what they use to create the VB IDE? If they didn't do it in ML or ASM, maybe they used Visual C++?
If that's the case, then I feel as if I'm God. :):D

Actually - it's one of Microsoft's own quotes - "We use it before you do. Visual C++ was written with Visual C++." :D Figure that one out. If you scroll through the tips of the day of VC++ (6.0 anyway) you'll see that quote.

So I guess that would mean that the first 32 bit version of VC++ was done in C and assembler - and from then on out they used the old version of VC++ to develop the next version.

I do know that they still use VC++ 5.00 for some things, I've seen Microsoft applications with a linker version of 5.12. :rolleyes:

I guess after they're done, they recompile the code with the new version - because CL.EXE has a linker version of 6.0.

Can someone with the .NET compiler check the linker version on CL.exe? I would bet it's 7.0.... (Use Dependency Walker)

(And seeing some *supposed* MS drivers on my CPU right now, the real checksum doesn't match link checksum - guess they're hacked drivers. ;) Guess that's why I don't see the blue screen of death so much. :p - I'm sorry, I mean system *.dll's - not drivers. Don't no where my mind was on that one. )

[aio]

Or perhaps, created the compiler/linker etc, with C/Asm, then the resulting product was used to created the IDE?

[Gabriel Fleseriu]

AFAIK it's a standard test for C and C++ compilers to compile themselves...

[Xeon]

Thanks a lot, James!

Actually, I've always been darn curious about how compilers were created in the first place.
In the programming world, compilers are like God.
God created stuff in the universe, but who created God? That's the same with compilers.

U use C/ASM to create the very first version of Visual C++. But how do u create the C compiler in the first place? Probably with an ASM compiler. But what do they use to create the ASM compiler? With ML compilers, I think. And what do they use to create the ML compilers? Bare hands, probably. And what do they use to create the bare hands? The ancestors of humans passed them down, probably. And who created the human ancestors?.......(topic has changed from compiler discussion to evolution of species:D:D)

[Gabriel Fleseriu]

Here is what Bjarne Stroustrup answers to the question "Which language did you use to write C++?" (http://www.research.att.com/~bs/bs_faq2.html#bootstrapping) . If the link does not jump to the label, look for the question by yourself in the page.

[Xeon]

Oh I see!
Thanks a lot, Gabriel! :):D

[JamesSchumacher]

CL.EXE is the compiler, not the IDE. MSDEV.EXE (and a heck of a lot of *.dll's) are the IDE. Although I still fail to see why the compiler in this day and age has to be commandline.

Figuring how MS thinks of things, I thought they'd make the compiler part a COM object (God forbid!). When they do that - the IDE is will be either a C#/VB.NET app completely. And further pushing down C++ in MS's eyes. (Okay, I guess I don't see it as that bad of a thing - considering I'm getting a dual boot machine soon that boots Linux and Windows 2000) - I don't feel like someday NEEDING 512 MB of RAM to run a compiler with it's IDE. (Visual Studio.NET as is REQUIRES 128 MB of RAM. I have 256 MB of RAM right now, Win98 takes up 32 MB of that, and add on my firewall, etc... that run all the time - and if I ran that app - I'd be in virtual memory for sure. And people wonder why I optimize the h*ll out of my own *.exe's and *.dll's for size - (exporting by ordinal instead of name, using #pragma comment(linker,"OPT:/NOWIN98"), run only a few threads at a time instead of like 50 - (yes, I've seen app's run 50 threads at one time, all with the default stack space of 1MB even though every one of those threads does not need 1MB, etc... - the only application that has any use for running that many threads is a server of some sort, that has many concurrent connections.))

[JamesSchumacher]

Originally posted by Xeon
Thanks a lot, James!

Actually, I've always been darn curious about how compilers were created in the first place.
In the programming world, compilers are like God.
God created stuff in the universe, but who created God? That's the same with compilers.

U use C/ASM to create the very first version of Visual C++. But how do u create the C compiler in the first place? Probably with an ASM compiler. But what do they use to create the ASM compiler? With ML compilers, I think. And what do they use to create the ML compilers? Bare hands, probably. And what do they use to create the bare hands? The ancestors of humans passed them down, probably. And who created the human ancestors?.......(topic has changed from compiler discussion to evolution of species:D:D)

Right except for one thing - I don't think that there is a such thing as a ML compiler - considering machine code is the actual binary data interpreted by the machine. Applications coded in ML are hand coded all the way. (I can see how a linker could be useful for this purpose - coding object files in ML (hand coding) and linking via the linker). And the correct term for an ASM compiler, is just an assembler - it's technically not a *compiler*, as a compiler turns text code (such as C++) to assembly code, which assembly instructions have a one-to-one mapping with a machine code operand (yes, I know this probably isn't the right term - but logically, you get what I mean.) - in assembly, the instruction maps to machine code, if you use a register (and what register) and/or a memory location changes the output of the code as well.

When you write an assembler - you learn what the maker of the chip defines as it's assembly instructions, and what they want you define to map to this specific binary output.

But on the other hand, you could argue that it is a compiler - in the fact that you still parse 'text' code, albeit assembly.

The computer doesn't understand 'assembly' instructions - all it understands is 1's and 0's, whether power is 'on' or 'off' at that particular location. The 'bit depth' of the processor, 32 bit for example - is the amount that a processor 'reads' to read/write/execute at one time (generically speaking).

In generic terms - back to assembly mapping to machine code - it is much easier to think of 'moving' some data to another location by the 'mov' instruction instead of looking up the actual binary output to accomplish this task. That is the idea behind assembly.

For example, say you have a memory location that is 32 bits long, and stores the value 0xFFFFFFFF in hexadecimal (all bits set in binary) - and you want to move it to another location. In C++, like this...


unsigned long dwOriginalLocation(0xFFFFFFFF); // When I initialize variables
// at declaration - I use this method defined by C++ instead
// of =
unsigned long dwNewLocation = dwOriginalLocation;


Now, UNOPTIMIZED, the assembly code to do this would be something like this: - keep in mind I use the name of C++ variable, as it would be used in inline assembly of the compiler.


mov eax,dwOriginalLocation ; just say that dwOriginalLocation
; has existed for awhile
mov dwNewLocation,eax


And the assembler would map it to the correct ML output.

Some compilers have the option to show you the assembly output (and in comment, it's corresponding machine code in text form) - you can do this with VC++ (atleast 6.0) - go to the listing files section of the compiler options. (I do it for getting the mangled names of C++ functions after my large *.dll projects reach around 700+ exports, so I can't just temporarily use __declspec(dllexport) and Dependency walker to get the names. - plus, you can only get new and delete operators mangled name by doing this as __declspec(dllexport) does not work on them. (Maybe a *.map file can??? - never used it)) - maybe C++ should have an extension added to it - like a keyword, such as 'mangled_name(function_declaration)' and the compiler should replace it with a constant string with the mangled name? And have a corresponding 'unmangle_name(const char * pstrMangled) which could be a function. I already asked one person who was knowledgable in C++ (supposedly) and he said the language shouldn't bend towards how the outer internals of an OS or specific implementation does things. (Then why oh why has __declspec(dllexport) become pretty standard across environments? The need to export from shared libraries?) I can see more use of out knowing the mangled name of a C++ function than I do of type info, but type info is there in the language. Sure, using typeid, you can get the function TYPE (like this)


void MyFunction() throw();
//...
std::cout << typeid(MyFunction).name() << std::endl;


But that's a COMPILE time check, run that code and you'll get:
void (__cdecl*)(void) on VC++ - but you know that since you wrote the function - raw_name() returns whatever the compiler decides to represent this type. What you DON'T know at compile time, is the mangled name - however - the compiler DOES know this - so it makes even more sense to put that in.

Ah, I think this is definitely my last post in this thread - because I seem to take one point to another, and eventually totally go off topic. (More discussion? Start another thread)

[Xeon]

God! James! Have you thought of writing a book on the relationship between ASM and C++, the links between 'em and such? WHOA!!!!!!! :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

[JamesSchumacher]

Originally posted by Xeon
God! James! Have you thought of writing a book on the relationship between ASM and C++, the links between 'em and such? WHOA!!!!!!! :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

Actually - I will eventually write a C++ compiler (you've no doubt seen my plans for the future :p in other posts of mine) - normally, I don't comment my code very much, unless it's a complicated section (just so I can remember what I did some years later) - but when I do - I'll comment the source very heavy - although, I tend to write LOGICAL code (what I mean by logical, is naming things well, and well thought out classes - opposed to all the dirty 'C' and macro code you see with alot of compression libraries), and keep the SPEED portions to inline functions that need little explanation (if it needs to be fast, I live and die by the method - if it's called in a loop - it should be inline). Is that close enough to a book explaining the relationships between all this?

[Xeon]

). Is that close enough to a book explaining the relationships between all this?

A book is still the best, but aye~! I guess u're a full true blue compiler guy more than a programmer. :):D

But anyway, in order not to tempt you to make another post in this thread again, I'll shut up.:):):)

[aio]

Originally posted by JamesSchumacher


Actually - I will eventually write a C++ compiler . . .

Why not just invent a new language -- easy to use like VB (or other Basics) -- yet powerful enough like C?

[JamesSchumacher]

Originally posted by aio


Why not just invent a new language -- easy to use like VB (or other Basics) -- yet powerful enough like C?

Maybe that's something I could do - I don't plan on doing it for about 10 years (allow me to get farther along in life, marriage, kids, etc... and expand my programming knowledge even further). 10 years down the road, it might be a very viable solution.

If I could predict the future - let me play a devil's advocate here - what I'd probably do, is do something similar to how GCC does things - allow things to be syntax different, allowing 'plugin' modules to expand it's language recognization - but require certain things of the language - like true OOP support (everything C++ has, all forms of inheritance, virtual functions, etc...) just so all the languages would be binary compatible. Basically - do what Microshaft is trying to do with COM objects and JIT crap - except do it at the lowest level instead of the overhead all that stuff brings.

I think one thing I would do, is at the top of the include files and source files, require something like assembly has with:

.386

Which means to target 386 compatible machines, with something like:

Compiler.Language = __cplusplus;

So mixed language source files could be used in a project.

I am thinking of things as time passes on, I came up with this really quick after you mentioned that, because I plan on making compiler switches and linker switches done in this manner, by typing Compiler.Whatever or Linker.Whatever. (I want to eliminate the preprocessor as well - I think I have a viable solution for that as well thought of)

[mitesh2005]

East or west VC is the best. :)

[aio]

Originally posted by JamesSchumacher

I am thinking of things as time passes on, I came up with this really quick after you mentioned that, because I plan on making compiler switches and linker switches done in this manner, by typing Compiler.Whatever or Linker.Whatever. (I want to eliminate the preprocessor as well - I think I have a viable solution for that as well thought of)

Good luck then James. Make it available in less than 10 years. I maybe able to help as Beta Tester. :)


mitesh2005:
East or west VC is the best

But North or South, it's VB, no doubt :p

[JamesSchumacher]

Originally posted by aio
Good luck then James. Make it available in less than 10 years. I maybe able to help as Beta Tester. :)


Whenever it comes out - just watch for the XCS (Expandable Compiler System.

Although I have been a Win32 coder for the majority of my 2.5 years as a programmer, and I have said I would go to Linux - I'm seriously considering another route. I might take my efforts to help what I believe is close to what I would want in an OS and just needs developer support. AtheOS - http://www.atheos.cx - So it's quite possible that some sort of release from me could possibly come earlier (and definitely other applications) for that particular platform. MS may want to depreciate C++ - but atleast I have one place to go to where I have an option.


But North or South, it's VB, no doubt :p

Stay on topic - I don't agree - I think I like C(++).

[Platinum Plus]

Originally posted by JamesSchumacher

Stay on topic - I don't agree - I think I like C(++).
VB is on topic. Maybe if he had mention COBOL then :eek:
I might take my efforts to help what I believe is close to what I would want in an OS and just needs developer support. But James we cannot wait 10 years or there about for an OS. Develop the OS and you can marry peacefully thereafter :cool:

[Xeon]

From AIO and Mitesh:

East or west VC is the best
But North or South, it's VB, no doubt


I agree, but whatever it is, there's no place for Java.
If you're a VB or C++ programmer(who's been programming Windows using the pure Win32 API or MFC) and u try GUI programming in Java, you're gonna get it : HeII.

The way this whole darn Java thing is structured is totally illogical and outta this world.
I could have curse this fake language for a zillion years if I had the time, but as I've zillions of mails in my box, I've no time to.

Someone please gimme a poster or picture of James Gosling, inventor of Java, and I'll pee on it.

[Platinum Plus]

Someone please gimme a poster or picture of James Gosling, inventor of Java, and I'll pee on it. So Xeon you are Meon !

[Xeon]

Of course not, Platinum! Stop pondering over useless stuff! :D:D

Xeon isn't Meon, and Leon isn't Xeon. In other words, Xeon IS NOT Yeon, and Yeon definetly isn't the same person as Peon.
U might be confused, but it's logical : Reon isn't the same person as Seon, of course.
Put simply, Xeon is not Eeon or Geon and Keon. Xeon is Xeon, and Meon is Meon.
And defiently, Beon is not Veon or Meon, and Teon isn't Xeon.

:):D:p :cool:

[JamesSchumacher]

Originally posted by Platinum Plus

VB is on topic. Maybe if he had mention COBOL then :eek:
But James we cannot wait 10 years or there about for an OS. Develop the OS and you can marry peacefully thereafter :cool:

I meant for me to stay on topic - sorry for the lack of clarity.

I didn't mean 10 years before I start - I'm just setting a *realistic* goal for me to be finished, so I can balance everything in my life. Personally, my desire to raise a family is above my programming desires - but - my desire to be a Computer Scientist/Meterologist springs further from that fact because I want my future family to not go through what my family did growing up - so it's a high priority as well.

[Platinum Plus]

Put simply, Xeon is not Eeon or Geon and Keon. Xeon is Xeon, and Meon is Meon. You can go on and write a poem on this - Prose n' Poetry by Xeon not Meon :D
Personally, my desire to raise a family is above my programming desires :( Sorry, selfish old me :( All the best JamesSchumacher ;)

[Xeon]

From Platinum pal:

You can go on and write a poem on this - Prose n' Poetry by Xeon not Meon


Well, Platinum.....here's the poetry then.

Infinite Xeons


Once upon a time, there was a guy called Aeon,
who gave birth to a daughter called Beon,
who in turn got a cat by name of Ceon.
Ceon got married to a bishop called Deon,
and Deon had a child by the name of Eeon.

Eeon, however, was a total failure and married Feon,
a female gambler and gangster who belonged to this gang called Geon
Tis' was a terrible gang, and there wreak havoc in tis' town called Heon.

But good always triumps over evil, and came this guy called Ieon,
who destroyed the entire gang with his mighty blade called Jeon.
Ieon had a horse who's mane was just like Keon,
the legendary deity who blessed the people of the kingdom Leon.

Leon, in turn, was named after a great general called Meon,
who love to urinate on this tree called Neon.
With this kinda fertilizer, the tree called Neon grew and grew till it reached the size of Oeon

Oeon was a great big giant who towered over even Peon
Peon was a large horse whom most giants rode on to the town called Qeon.
Qeon, of course, was named after Reon.

Now, Reon was a great woman who slayed the dragon by name of Seon.
Seon had flames hotter than the sun, even more bitter than the terrible demon, Teon.

Teon, by the way, had just developed a company called Ueon.
Ueon was renamed to Intel later on, and the new boss was Veon.
Veon gave birth to a son called Weon.
Weon later instilled the invincible power of the mightiest processor ever into Xeon,
the man above all great men.

Such was Xeon, the protector of the country called Yeon,
and to end this, one of the coolest name is Zeon.


Need I say more??!!!

If you wanna print this legendary poem out and frame it all over your office and home etc., remember to choose a nice background etc, so that you don't insult my work.
Thank you.:)

[Simon666]

You should write a book like "Lord of the Rings", you're as good in inventing useless crap as Tolkien.

[zeroes]

the first programming language i ever touched was qbasic in my high school days. then i learned c when i was in the first year of my college. for me, c, c++ and eventually vc++ are indeed a very powerful tools. althoug the c language is much more complex, its advantages outweight the disadvantages. for one, i consider c to be one of the most powerful development platform for windows apps today. but then again, as it was pointed out in one of the replies, c demands that you have a book or two to get the most out of it. on the other hand, vb, being less powerful that c, takes care of lots of things for the developer so that his time is dedicated on finding the algorithm for the problem. i'm currently developing applications using vb and stopped vc++ for a while but i think i'll be going back to vc++ real soon.

[Platinum Plus]

remember to choose a nice background etc, so that you don't insult my work. A little puppy being a Meon.

[irona20]

Originally posted by Xeon
Of course not, Platinum! Stop pondering over useless stuff! :D:D

Xeon isn't Meon, and Leon isn't Xeon. In other words, Xeon IS NOT Yeon, and Yeon definetly isn't the same person as Peon.
U might be confused, but it's logical : Reon isn't the same person as Seon, of course.
Put simply, Xeon is not Eeon or Geon and Keon. Xeon is Xeon, and Meon is Meon.
And defiently, Beon is not Veon or Meon, and Teon isn't Xeon.

:):D:p :cool:
Peon is another spanish word :D, but it is more polite :)

[Platinum Plus]

Originally posted by irona20

Peon is another spanish word :D, but it is more polite :)
What's the meaning of Peon? Peon should actually replace Meon, come to think of it. Try saying Peon real slowly :D :D ;)

[aio]

Originally posted by zeroes
...
i'm currently developing applications using vb and stopped vc++ for a while but i think i'll be going back to vc++ real soon.

But if you start earning with pleasure -- not pressure -- do you think you'll still go back to vc ++? .:) :) :)

[Platinum Plus]

aio do you sometimes program in C or any of its flavors ?

[Xeon]

From Irona20:

Peon is another spanish word , but it is more polite


Really! Maybe 'Peon' means farting on someone? Or is 'Peon' a person who gets farted on???!!! Ohhh!

Anyway, does 'Xeon' actually mean anything in Spanish? Like a great hero of the past or something?
Or maybe Xeon means a noble warrior who's real famous in Spanish folk-tales etc.?!

Whoa! Ohhh! :):):D

[From Platinum Plus:

aio do you sometimes program in C or any of its flavors ?


Nah, Platti pal. AIO programs in VB. :)

From Simon:

You should write a book like "Lord of the Rings", you're as good in inventing useless crap as Tolkien.


Simon......as long as you eat books every day, u should be able to write a better poem than me. :):D
But seriously.......only talented poets can write such poems, k??!! :D:D:D:D

[aio]

Originally posted by Platinum Plus
aio do you sometimes program in C or any of its flavors ?

During DOS time when I don't know yet what language to specialize, I tried QuickBasic, Turbo Pascal, and Turbo C. But in my line of job -- which is not a full time programmer but a Marketing Services/Market Research administrative personnel -- I felt that I can do my job better with QB than with TP & TC. So I set asside TP & TC.

Right now, I can still read and understand lots of C/Pascal codes but can only do less coding them. Just like in Spanish where I can read and understand probably 80% of it but could hardly speak 50% of it.

[aio]

Originally posted by Xeon

...
Like a great hero of the past or something?
Or maybe Xeon means a noble warrior who's real famous in Spanish folk-tales etc.?!


Sounds familiar in 'Don Quixote de la Mancha' :D :D :D. Say the words 'Don Quixote' in reverse, very fast. It sounds 'Xeon' :) :p :D

[Xeon]

AIO, u're gonna received a letter from my lawyer real darn soon for indirectly hurting me in a physical way.

I mean, after trying to say that "Don Quixote" word, my tongue got tied up and now I can't kiss gurls. U have taken away my happiness too.

I'm gonna sue ye' for US$5 million, and yes, we can settle this outta court, provided you gimme a plate of chicken chop every day. Thank you. :):):D:D:D:D

Nay, just kidding, pal. :D

[Platinum Plus]

Xeon, I'm on two tough VB projects and to keep me going I need the perfect meal. Send me your Chicken Chop recipe and I will try it out with Chapati :D

[irona20]

Originally posted by aio

Sounds familiar in 'Don Quixote de la Mancha' :D :D :D. Say the words 'Don Quixote' in reverse, very fast. It sounds 'Xeon' :) :p :D

Quixote? :D It is better the original: Don Quijote :p and Sancho Panza :D

[irona20]

Originally posted by Xeon
From Irona20:

Really! Maybe 'Peon' means farting on someone? Or is 'Peon' a person who gets farted on???!!! Ohhh!

Anyway, does 'Xeon' actually mean anything in Spanish? Like a great hero of the past or something?
Or maybe Xeon means a noble warrior who's real famous in Spanish folk-tales etc.?!

Whoa! Ohhh! :):):D


:D :D Sorry, Xeon isn't anything in Spanish :p
But Peon can be labourer or pawn. Both words are said "peón"

[Platinum Plus]

Irona, what happened to the drums ?

[Simon666]

Somewhat cooler avatar Irona. The last one looked ridiculous, like an ananas at a drum set. Maybe a bit over the top though.

[irona20]

Originally posted by Platinum Plus
Irona, what happened to the drums ?

:D, this avatar is funnier than drums :)

[irona20]

Originally posted by Simon666
Somewhat cooler avatar Irona. The last one looked ridiculous, like an ananas at a drum set. Maybe a bit over the top though.
Didn't you like my drums, Simon? :p
Well, I like me, I laughed a lot when I saw the drums the first time :)

[Simon666]

I consider an ananas at a drumset funny because it is a bit ridiculous. So yes, I think it was funny.

[Xeon]

From Platinum Plus(a.k.a. The Cute Little Boy):

Xeon, I'm on two tough VB projects and to keep me going I need the perfect meal. Send me your Chicken Chop recipe and I will try it out with Chapati


Well, Platinum, we all know whata' lovable guy u're. So, here's my recipe. Please don't tell anyone else about it.
The point here is that if you want an ordinary set meal of chicken chop, u can get it anywhere, anytime, any place and everywhere.
But if you're looking to a chicken chop set meal whereby after you've eaten, u feel like Hercules and u feel golden and such, below is the way to cook it:

Ingredients:

1) 1 kilogram of Divine Dew ---- to make chicken chop glow
2) 8 teaspoons of Heaven's Salt ---- to ensure total satisfaction
3) 8 teaspoons of St. Peter's pepper ---- to make joy last longer after eating chicken chop
4) 9 teaspoons of cooking oil, found in St. Augustine's garden ---- to make chicken chop so darn tender you'll be addicted to it.
5) 11 teaspoons of black pepper, from Moses's kitchen ---- to expose the real taste and perfection of what chicken chop experts termed as "killer-chop".
6) 1 small bag of french fries, found in St. Joan of Arc's cookery ---- to serve as a very attractive and unbeatable side-dish
7) 1 small bag of beans and sprouts, gotten from St. Bernard's 5th drawer at that left-corner in his kitchen ---- to give you the full might and the energy of Hercules
8) (optional) : Mayonnaise, gotten from Jane, that cow in the yard behind the Garden of Eden ---- to make the chicken chop flawless and sweet
9) 1 whole chicken with bones taken out : the main dish itself. Do u take an ordinary chicken? No. U get it from the Garden of Eden itself. Never kill this juicy chicken in that sacred Garden. Do it elsewhere.

After all these, mix all the ingredients and use ChopCooker from XeonWare Inc. to prepare and managed all the cooking for you. Shareware, US$70.99. Real darn cheap, I tell you. :)

The truth is : if you can't code a office suite 100 times more extreme and powerful than Microsoft Office XP after eating this chicken chop from the Heavens, I'll destroy my manhood. Period.

From Irona:

Sorry, Xeon isn't anything in Spanish
But Peon can be labourer or pawn. Both words are said "peón"


Oh I see!


Didn't you like my drums, Simon?
Well, I like me, I laughed a lot when I saw the drums the first time [/quotes]

They're the cutest and funniest avatar I ever see! How darn cute! Ohhhh.......

From the Great Beast, 666:
[quote]
Somewhat cooler avatar Irona. The last one looked ridiculous, like an ananas at a drum set. Maybe a bit over the top though.


What's an anana? A banana kinda tool to beat the drums in Hawaii? It reminds me of those private parts on the body of errr........period.(I don't wanna get banned again, please)

:D:):D

The truth is : Need I say more??!!! :D

[Simon666]

Originally posted by Xeon
6) 1 small bag of french fries, found in St. Joan of Arc's cookery ---- to serve as a very attractive and unbeatable side-dish
You don't know much about European history, don't you? Why didn't you just call it St. Joan of Arc's barbecue if you want to be very sadistic?
Originally posted by Xeon
What's an anana? A banana kinda tool to beat the drums in Hawaii? It reminds me of those private parts on the body of errr........period.(I don't wanna get banned again, please)
An ananas is a piece of fruit. Have you really never heard of it? It is typical of you though to think of female bodyparts again. :D :p

[Platinum Plus]

Simon says It is typical of you though to think of female bodyparts again.
I say But yes Simon, you wouldn't want him to think of male bodyparts now would you ?

[Simon666]

I think he already does. ;) The talk of females ( body parts) is just a distraction manoeuvre.

[Yves M]

Originally posted by Simon666
An ananas is a piece of fruit. Have you really never heard of it? It is typical of you though to think of female bodyparts again. :D :p

Maybe grapefruit rings a bell ? ;)

[Simon666]

I thought it was English, but after looking it up (http://gmr.landfood.unimelb.edu.au/Plantnames/Sorting/Ananas.html) the translation appears to be pineapple, not grapefruit. It's only the English who seem to want to do it different from the rest of Europe (as usual : they drive on the other side of the road and the metric system is new to them). It is called ananas or very similar in Danish, Dutch, Estonian, Finnish, French, German, Italian, Polish, Portuguese, Spanish, Swedish, Turkish and even in Arabic, Hindi, and Urdu.

[Platinum Plus]

In Africa pineapple is called nanas. I am sure it came from ananas. Strange, the name is almost global :eek:

[irona20]

In Spanish is ananás, but... it is most known like piña :)

[Xeon]

From Simon:

You don't know much about European history, don't you? Why didn't you just call it St. Joan of Arc's barbecue if you want to be very sadistic?


I know about the story of Joan of Arc, kid! I read it up once, kid!
I dunno the full exact happenings, but I know she's a brave warrior who fought for the French army(against the British, I think) and got termed as a witch in the end and got burned at the stake alive. Hmmm...kinda sad......it depends on how you think it, kid!
If you wanna see things from a total pervert's viewpoint, no one can stop you, right? If you're thinking dirty all the time, again, no one can control your thinking. If you see a black-color coated computer and you think of it as Satan, who can stop you? :roll eyes:


An ananas is a piece of fruit. Have you really never heard of it? It is typical of you though to think of female bodyparts again.

No.....not really........ananas doesn't remind me of female bodyparts. It reminds me of male bodyp.......u get the idea.
Cos' logically, ananas is related to banana, and as u know, banana.........ummm.........u get the whole idea. :D:D:)

[Simon666]

Originally posted by Xeon
I know about the story of Joan of Arc, kid! I read it up once, kid! Then it is not smart - if not intended - or else sadistic - if intended - of you to mention her in a context of frying, which she did herself.
Originally posted by Xeon
Cos' logically, ananas is related to banana, and as u know, banana.........ummm.........u get the whole idea. :D:D:) Because banana = b + ananas - s does not mean that two words are logically or elseway related in English.

[Platinum Plus]

Xeon says No.....not really........ananas doesn't remind me of female bodyparts. It reminds me of male bodyp I think Simon has been vindicated :o

[Xeon]

Aye Simon! :p:p

Anyway, Platinum pal......."vindicated"??!!

Whoa! U really gotta send me 10 plates of chicken chop every 5 days! Why? Cos' your English level has improved dramatically since you met me! Cool! :)

[Yves M]

Originally posted by Simon666
I thought it was English, but after looking it up (http://gmr.landfood.unimelb.edu.au/Plantnames/Sorting/Ananas.html) the translation appears to be pineapple, not grapefruit. It's only the English who seem to want to do it different from the rest of Europe (as usual : they drive on the other side of the road and the metric system is new to them). It is called ananas or very similar in Danish, Dutch, Estonian, Finnish, French, German, Italian, Polish, Portuguese, Spanish, Swedish, Turkish and even in Arabic, Hindi, and Urdu.

Huh, yes you are right, it's pineapple, not grapefruit. I guess grapefruit came to my mind since I absolutely hate it :p

And for that matter, we call it ananas in Luxembourg too :p

[aio]

I just wonder to what extend VB and VC/C++ is used and how they overlap.

May I ask how you voted and what type of programs are you making?

As for me, I voted "VB Only". I'm into Marketing Information systems such as Market Planning, Market Research, Sales/Promotions tracking - pharmaceutical based. These are primarily database programs.

Additionally, I programmed mainly in Excel-VBA (seldom in full packaged VB) because my products are used primarily in the field by salesmen, auditors and researchers.

What about you please?

[dtv]

Ok guys, its not easy for me to write a friendly letter down here, but all i want to say is...

...I love to be a part of this forum cause actually has very serious members with a lot of experience and mature thinking first of all.

In DOS' days all my friends saying to me to learn something more than GWBasic, QBasic, even Turbo Pascal. But in this modern time we live its easy for everyone to see that the final common costumer wants something beautifull in his/her screen, animated puppets and 500 progress bars running simultaneously and showing some action (no care for fanatic speed, unless you are targetting polyethnic companies).

Visual C/C++ are tough languages... The only thing that could make me to look there is the compiler's speed. BUT, thanks to INTEL we have today extremely fast CPUs, GPUs and other smart boards, and all this together "encrypts" in some way the most important "bad" thing of Visual Basic, the execution speed of the compiled programs. Run a visual C++ program on a Pentium II machine, and a VB program on a Pentium 4 system. Which is the faster? :-p

I love so much VB, even my nephew can understand a visual basic program by seeing it in the IDE! Also thanks to the ACTIVEX technology there is no way turning my eye somewhere else: Just find the right OCX (if you cant do it by APIcalls or your own) and do what you want.

I cant forget my enthousiasm when i saw in VB5 the ability of writing a keyword and immediately the environment to showing me the right list of parameters, other options etc.

In college time I used to program in Assembly, even using DEBUG.COM, just by reading a Peter Norton's book. It was fun, to talk to the CPU and registers so straight.

But we are living in Microsoft days guys, the old DOS days with just a floppy aboard on the system are gone forever. Now all we have to do is to press the right buttons and run the right wizards.

DOS programs written for example in Turbo Pascal are CPU-dependent -only-. Now in windows our programs written through this modern IDEs the actuall thing they are doing is to manage ready-made windows function calls. Try to replace "kernel32.dll" with one you made (when in DOS clear mode). Of course consider first of putting in the new kernel the same functions and parameters, but having different results. And after that run Adobe Photoshop... Its possible for then to have a game-pacman on the screen instead of a picture processor.

Can i throw away my tears now? :)

Its good to have you all!!!

~poof~

[Xeon]

From Danish TV:

Can i throw away my tears now?
Its good to have you all!!!


How sweet, cute and sentimental! I......u......u-u-u.....make me cry! Argh booo hoo hoo! :(:(:(

Are you a cute li'l girl, or a hot hot lady?! :eek::eek:

[Gabriel Fleseriu]

Originally posted by dtv
But in this modern time we live its easy for everyone to see that the final common costumer wants something beautifull in his/her screen, animated puppets and 500 progress bars running simultaneously and showing some action (no care for fanatic speed, unless you are targetting polyethnic companies).

Visual C/C++ are tough languages... The only thing that could make me to look there is the compiler's speed.


The compiler speed is irrelevant. I think you mean the speed of the compiled code, don't you? ;)

BUT, thanks to INTEL we have today extremely fast CPUs, GPUs and other smart boards,

It is true that Intel has a couple of GPUs, but these are far from being the best around (e.g. see nVidia)

and all this together "encrypts" in some way the most important "bad" thing of Visual Basic, the execution speed of the compiled programs. Run a visual C++ program on a Pentium II machine, and a VB program on a Pentium 4 system. Which is the faster? :-p


Not exacltly a fair comparison. It's like with the hare and the turtle, except that the turtle rides an express train :)


I love so much VB, even my nephew can understand a visual basic program by seeing it in the IDE! Also thanks to the ACTIVEX technology there is no way turning my eye somewhere else: Just find the right OCX (if you cant do it by APIcalls or your own) and do what you want.


You know, many ActiveX controls are written in C++ ;)


I cant forget my enthousiasm when i saw in VB5 the ability of writing a keyword and immediately the environment to showing me the right list of parameters, other options etc.


The VC IDE does that too.


In college time I used to program in Assembly, even using DEBUG.COM, just by reading a Peter Norton's book. It was fun, to talk to the CPU and registers so straight.

But we are living in Microsoft days guys, the old DOS days with just a floppy aboard on the system are gone forever. Now all we have to do is to press the right buttons and run the right wizards.

DOS programs written for example in Turbo Pascal are CPU-dependent -only-. Now in windows our programs written through this modern IDEs the actuall thing they are doing is to manage ready-made windows function calls.


We both know that it is not true what you are saying.

Try to replace "kernel32.dll" with one you made (when in DOS clear mode). Of course consider first of putting in the new kernel the same functions and parameters, but having different results. And after that run Adobe Photoshop... Its possible for then to have a game-pacman on the screen instead of a picture processor.


Replacing kernel32.dll is only possible if you write the new one in C ore C++. And it will probably get you a system crash instead of Pacman. :D

Don't take my post too seriously -- I'm just playing the devils advocate.

On a more serious note: VB has some major advantages (production speed, ease of learming it) but it doesn't render C/C++ useless. I can easily name things that can be done with C/C++ but are impossible in VB.

Cheers

[Thread1]

This is my first time to post in this thread so give way to a kid:D..

My favorite language is C/C++ but there's something I couldn't resist in vb - The drugs called RAD!!!:D:D

[Xeon]

From Thread1:

This is my first time to post in this thread so give way to a kid..

I really love humble guys like you, Thread! :):)
You see, not everyone knows how to respect the big boys.

Dunno who the big boys are? They're XeOn, Gabriel and Brad.
The others....they're just boys and men. :cool::cool:

Oh yes.....but they have the girls too, so everyone is happy and everyone wins. :D:D:)

[rxbagain]

Originally posted by Thread1
My favorite language is C/C++ but there's something I couldn't resist in vb - The drugs called RAD!!!Generally, VB is much easier and faster to make programs. But if you know a lot of C++, especially MFC, you can make programs in C++ as almost as fast as VB. They only have small time difference.

Yes, I agree with you that you can not beat VB in terms of production speed. That's true because you use that bunch of OCXs/DLLs and make your program dependent to each and everyone this programs that if only one of these is misssing, then you cannot run your program anymore. But if you decided to use API calls instead of OCXs/DLLs or if your program can only be done in API calls, then C++ will beat you.

When I started as a programmer using VB language, I said this language is very great. I programmed many apps in using this language. But, the time I learned C++, I found those many bugs and limitations in VB. You cannot do those system level things in your VB code. You cannot make drivers!!!!. You are fast in VB but you dont have the power!!!

Originally posted by dtv
In college time I used to program in Assembly, even using DEBUG.COM, just by reading a Peter Norton's book. It was fun, to talk to the CPU and registers so straight.

But we are living in Microsoft days guys, the old DOS days with just a floppy aboard on the system are gone forever. Now all we have to do is to press the right buttons and run the right wizardsHave you not heard of win32 Assembly???? Don't say that you erased all your knowledge you acquired in your college days.

[dtv]

C++ is great.

I am programming in VB, but C++ is great.

I am making enough money to live a confortable life with VB, but C++ is great.

I feel sadness sometimes cause I cant make drivers with VB, thats why C++ is so great.

And that speed in VB, oh God, how many times I switched on that electronic manual -headwash- to learn C++ (which is great), but, what can I do, I am not that smart to learn C++, let the smarters do the job.

Is that all you want to hear about C++ ? But, its true! C++ IS GREAT.

Dont you think that some of us have enough years of life to decide some things you dont even see?

Is an imagination that personally some costumers in my area are paying me $150 USD just for placing one screen of code in VB's ide? And that may happend even in a quarter of hour or less!

Yeah, C++ is great. Keep on doing the hard work, I like "Microsoft way" better.

{from a child's look}
And by the way, why dont you leave all the ready made windows objects and windows environment that someone else did? Dont even use the DOS mode, write one of your own "to have all the power that you need", or even better call all the technical info you need to build your own CPU with some undocumented options (thats what i call power!)
{/end}

There is no bad feelings here for anyone, I hope you can realise that. Its only facts: programming for living, programming for fun OR system programming.

A winner can exist in any side, a C++ or a VB user (or user of any other language/app maker).

It only depends of how you 're using it and what's the purpose.

I am seeing things on my way, of course. All the replies are respectable but its necessary to have a better way than a reply I've seen days ago.

Thanks.

[SeventhStar]

hmm yep!
C++ is great indeed
i started as a VB programmer but quicky moved to c++ (which is great :D :D :D )

[dimm_coder]

The main thing is NOT to be a blind fanatic of some language indeed, I think. Everything is good in the own context.
:rolleyes: :cool:

[souldog]

ALL PROGRAMMING LANGUAGES SUCK.
You programmers are just a bunch of glorified Technicians
I like watching TV and feeding pigeons

[aio]

Ah TV! That’s one invention that sucks. It only encourages indolence and have caused bulging tummies. :D :D

[souldog]

What's wrong with being lazy and fat?

big fat stinky lazy pig == happy

[souldog]

I voted for C++. Not for any reason, but that is all I know how to do. I say that if your not like me then your not good, so this means people who program with anything but C++ are not good.

[dimm_coder]

Originally posted by souldog
I say that if your not like me then your not good, so this means people who program with anything but C++ are not good.

Oh, no no Souldog, I like you ..., I like C++ ... need I say more to be a good. Can I be your pupil, then I go across the world to tell everyone how it is good for someone to be a C++ programmer and that in this case a Great Souldog bless U to be a good.
:rolleyes:

[Xeon]

I wonder who is that mighty guy who brought this thread alive? This thread used to be very active, then became a ghost town, and now....it's alive as London again! :eek::D

Also, I see a flame war coming soon. Guys.....save your best for The Hulk. This bulk is hitting cinemas screen soon(at least in Singapore) and you guys can save your punches for him.

Also, I wonder why Brad the Man didn't say anything here. Maybe he's busy writing the "Box Office" section in the CodeGuru Newsletter about reviews on The Hulk. :D:D:D:D

[souldog]

Flame War??

I am just trying to provide a service. Everyone must struggle with the question of how to behave in order to be good. I provide the answer: Behave like Souldog...
You might ask: "How does souldog behave?". Well that is your problem.

[Mick]

Originally posted by souldog
Everyone must struggle with the question of how to behave in order to be good.

"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law."

Read more aleister crowley. Who needs to behave ;)

[Thread1]

Yeah sure:D I admit that the C/C++ language is a powerful powerful programming language.. In fact, it is a language that is considered to be as the middle one (next to assembly language)... But in most cases I use VB RAD!:D:D;)

[Thread1]

To All,

Do you admit that Xeon is one of the BIG BOYS here in codeguru?!:D:D

[Xeon]

From Soul:

I am just trying to provide a service.

Forget about providing services, Soul pal. The market is already saturated with services providers such as web hosting services, hot services for men(Mick! :cool:), and several others.
The universe is not going to remember the services you do, but computers will.
So, take some time to code an NT service, Soul pal. :D

From Mick:

Read more aleister crowley. Who needs to behave

I agree totally. Forget about wives. Forget about having your own kids. All girls belong to all men and vice versa. The age of the Open Source Era has come. No marriages, no committment. You can flirt with 49 girls in town and don't have to be faithful to yur wife...if you don't marry. :cool:
MiCk...I salute you.

From Thread:

Do you admit that Xeon is one of the BIG BOYS here in codeguru?!

Stop laughing, kid! As if! :p

In the past when CodeGuru was still in it's infancy, who provided the milk for her to drink? Me!
(errr...I mean, I help to transport the milk)

In the past when Tom Archer was Administrator, who was the one who spend 4 whole days maintaining the servers non-stop without sleeping?

In the past when Brad ascended the throne, who was the one who stopped all the trouble-makers from staging a rebellion and who was the one who used his own blood to shield the king?

In the past when Gabriel was crowned the S. Moderator, who did all the propaganda for him and who sacrifice his ego and status?

ME!

Now, Thread......you're still new here, and as such....u're forgiven.
Now, where's SolarFlare? On a summer holiday in the beaches of Philadephia with the international 492 girls(hailing from Russia, Singapore, Austria, the US, England, China, India, Australia, New Zealand, Brazil, Cameroon, Zambaiwe, Tanzania, Canada, Belgium, Spain, France, Rome, Greece, Norway, Denmark, Germany, Syria, Iran, Israel, Mongolia, Paupae New Guinea, Poland, Monaco, Morroco, Malaysia, Thailand, Chad, Hungary.....) I sent him last month?
Aye, some boys. :cool:

[aio]

Originally posted by Thread1
To All,

Do you admit that Xeon is one of the BIG BOYS here in codeguru?!:D:D
I think so. There are some things that happened here that I think will not happen if Xeon is a SMALL BOY. The most transparent is the 'Member' status despite a big post counts.:D

He caused the word 'g u r l' to be spelled as '* * * *':)

I suspect he's also the reason why posts here are not counted anymore.:D

[aio]

Do you think that Pascal language could still be as popular as VB/VC/C++ today had computer language developers maintained the name Pascal, instead of renaming it Modula, Delphi, etc?

Look at VB – from GW-, Turbo-, Q-, Quick, and now Visual- -- they maintained the name Basic, despite that the language is actually far from the constructs of the original Basic. Same as the ‘C’ language to VC++, though, maintaining very well the constructs of the original C.

Modula and Delphi is still very much an original Pascal constructs (except the objects).

[aio]

Originally posted by souldog
What's wrong with being lazy and fat?


I can't run faster:D , so I have to be more responsible:)

[souldog]

Originally posted by aio
I can't run faster:D , so I have to be more responsible:)

I never thought of it that way:D

[SeventhStar]

Originally posted by aio
Do you think that Pascal language could still be as popular as VB/VC/C++ today had computer language developers maintained the name Pascal, instead of renaming it Modula, Delphi, etc?

Look at VB – from GW-, Turbo-, Q-, Quick, and now Visual- -- they maintained the name Basic, despite that the language is actually far from the constructs of the original Basic. Same as the ‘C’ language to VC++, though, maintaining very well the constructs of the original C.

Modula and Delphi is still very much an original Pascal constructs (except the objects).

Lots of people use delphi! and it's really easy to make data base (SQL, access) programs with it.

[aio]

Originally posted by SeventhStar
Lots of people use delphi! and it's really easy to make data base (SQL, access) programs with it.
I don't know in other places, but in my place, VB usage probably outnumbers Delphi by 10 to 1, unlike in the early QuickBasic-Turbo Pascal days where QuickBasic only slightly ahead.

Sometimes, I am tempted to tinker with Delphi, but since 2 years ago, I now seldom do full programming, so I never really tried it as much as I have used Pascal long ago. Most of my programming chores right now involves only extracting from existing databases and pass to users in the manner of easy-to-use "report writer" which I can easily do with mainly Excel-VBA.

By the way, who knows Lotus123 this days? What's the language it is using now in its Macro? I used to work in that yucky language. The syntax is something like (to create a new worksheet) ...

/wn
/fs"c:\mydir\myfile.wk1"{enter}

This is also the language of Excel Macro from version 1 to version 3 I think.

[Deniz]

I think vb is for people who can't code in C++ :wave: