Dev Article Discussion: What's the Difference Between a Hobbyist and a Professional?

What's the Difference Between a Hobbyist and a Professional?

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This is good point of view. I guess that enjoyment has to be a part of beeing an expert or professional. But, like in the others areas there are also exceptions. All can easyly bring a example of experts that are not enjoyed about there professionalism - or you name it. For me most important thing about beeing an expert or profesional (or hobbist) is to ensure constan improvement. Kaizen - in japanese terms. From the other hane, someone who is truely interested in the matter - has to improve itself it the matter. And this often can be acceived only by taking fun and enjoyment from the thing.

Sorry for crap english.

Well...this is an interesting topic...so let's dig into it...

I would say that none of the given reasons divides a professional from a hobbyist. As an example...when I am at work, I am developing professional applications. While being here at CodeGuru answering questions, I do it with the same professionality as I develop applications at work, although I am doing CodeGuru as one of my hobbies.

So...that basically leads to the question....am I a professional at work (since I built my career on it) and am a hobbyist here at CodeGuru? I would not say so since my answers provided here are based on the same professionality as my work is. That would make me both a professional at work and here at CodeGuru.

Based on the fact that CodeGuru however is only one of my hobbies, it would lead to the assumption that I am a professional hobbyist... :cool:

Thus, there cannot be distinguished any difference...so, let's go back to the words itself...

A hobbyist is

• a person who pursues and activity in their spare time for pleasure

A professional is

• a person following a profession, especially a learned profession.
• one who earns a living in a given or implied occupation: hired a professional to decorate the house.
• a skilled practitioner; an expert.

Does this definition brings something new? Not really...still there isn't anything that would prevent a hobbyist from being an expert in his area as well.

So...what is the conclusion? In my eyes there is no difference necessarely...as stated, a hobbyist can be a professional as well, however, in general people will simply follow the rule: If someone is doing something in his spare time he is a hobbyist (despite the fact that he might be an expert in his hobby), if someone is doing it as a job he is a professional.

This is basically an example of words which cannot be complety divided from each other and thus are more relying on what the majority used to put in it...

If it does not make sense, then this answer was provided by me as a hobbyist, if it does make sense, it was the professional in me... :D

So I have two challenges to you're a professional if you're working ...

1) If you loose your job do you instantly become a hobiest?
2) If you are "self-employed" are you a professional? I've met many people who are "self-employed" who are not...

Well...first of all...I did not want to offend anybody (especially the author). Neither did I meant to say the article was wrong or bad written. If someone gets the impression from my previous post, I apologize for this...

Okay....let's go further on with it...

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Originally Posted by rlbogue

1) If you loose your job do you instantly become a hobiest?
2) If you are "self-employed" are you a professional? I've met many people who are "self-employed" who are not...

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Well...I knew that something like that would come...if I would lose my job, I would be basically none of them...in the regard of the widely used meaning that I tried to point out in my previous post. First, I would like to divide that into people who are like me...having the same subject both for work and hobby and people who simply work. In my case I would be a hobbyist but not a professional (leave alone the problem that I can basically a professional hobbyist for now). In the other case, the person would not be either one (assuming that he does not have any hobbies at all).

However, there is coming another interesting aspect of how people look at this distinction...many people would still be refer to the person as being a professional, although not having a job right now. But they used to know that he was working as a professional. So, it is simply run by the association of the past.

The second question is even more interesting...I agree with you...I have also met many "professionals" where the only professional thing was that they know how to write 'professional'. But in this case, I think it is another different road on the subject. In this case, one refers to himself as being a professional or not. Before I was more thinking in regard of other people referring to your person.

Human nature always let people believe they are professionals as what they do...this is a natural thinking...would you ever say: Well, I program but I am really bad at it?

Maybe you would...to your wife your closest friend but not in front of one hundred people. Granted, everybody is different, and some people like me would do it simply because they do not care much about what other people think about them. This is then another side effect which comes into play here when looking at how people refer to themselves.

I unfortunately have to go for the moment, thus, I need to stop here...if the above does not make sense....simply let me know...

well, I would like to get involved in the discussion too... no one is agianst that?

I would say that Hobbyist and Professionals are two far away concepts... and who said, hobbyist's dont make money? there are hobbysists who spend lots of time on their hobbies... so, do they become professional?

professioanls [unlike me] stick to one profession? nope... Take [Robert] the author... in the endnote of the article, it has information about the author... do we say he is a professional or a hobbyist?

profession come to me as a hobbyist [frankly]... and now my profession has entirely changed... am i left without the Hobby... Guess not! I am still holding my place in CodeGuru [Thanks Brad! :D]

am i rattling here? hope not...

so coming back to the definitions and the idea of the article, I would like to quote the following sentence

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One of the interesting things about the hobbyist definition is that it speaks about something that is done for pleasure and enjoyment; however, the definition of a professional has no mention of whether the activities are enjoyable or not.

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Originally Posted by Andy Tacker

so coming back to the definitions and the idea of the article, I would like to quote the following sentence

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Yes....but being a professional hobbyist makes the the sentence invalid...since in this case the profession is done for pleasure and enjoyment as well... :cool:

Hobbyists make the best professionals. They almost always end up putting the necessary time in to make it happen the way it is supposed to.

ahoodin :D

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Originally Posted by Andreas Masur

Well...first of all...I did not want to offend anybody (especially the author). Neither did I meant to say the article was wrong or bad written. If someone gets the impression from my previous post, I apologize for this...

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Perhaps I should apologize. I didn't mean to imply that I was offended. I was just challenging your statements. I disagree (obviously) that professional is defined as employed.

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Originally Posted by Andreas Masur

Human nature always let people believe they are professionals as what they do...this is a natural thinking...would you ever say: Well, I program but I am really bad at it?

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Funny, I say I'm bad at things many would disagree with all the time. For instance, I routinely quote my 6th grade English teacher when I say I "shouldn't do anything that involves a lot of writing as a career." Let's just say that grammar and I are barely on speaking terms. I often tell others that I'm not good at one or more aspects of what I do. I did it today with a client. I think that's more about realizing that you are not defined by your profession.

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Originally Posted by Andy Tacker

<snip>and who said, hobbyist's dont make money? there are hobbysists who spend lots of time on their hobbies... so, do they become professional?

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Well, the IRS says that they're running a business, but that's a slightly different story.

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Originally Posted by Andy Tacker

Take [Robert] the author... in the endnote of the article, it has information about the author... do we say he is a professional or a hobbyist?

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Neither ... computer bum ... or perhaps "Still trying to figure out what he wants to be when he grows up" -- I don't know the word for that.

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Originally Posted by ahoodin

Hobbyists make the best professionals. They almost always end up putting the necessary time in to make it happen the way it is supposed to.

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So I guess people aren't agreeing with me that professional doesn't equate to competency. There are many professional but incompetent people that I know ...

However, I do sincerely agree that those who enjoy what they are doing and do it as a hobby as well are generally much better suited to succeed in a profession.

Sidebar: Are we alone in being both hobbiests and professionals? Do lawyers go home and sue people just for fun? (Don't answer that...)

This is an interesting topic that stresses the "strangeness" of my work pretty well. I work for a small company that was living 5 years with only one person doing everything. When I joined, I became the first employee, but it was still a "family thing". Since I've been working there, I always felt personally committed to the final program and most of the time enjoyed the work.

It certainly started out like a hobbyist thing and I still think of it that way. By your defintion, I think I fall under the professional category. However it doesn't feel that way.

Now, for the general case, I don't think that incompetent people can be labelled "professional". They are just lucky to get paid even though they are not skilled.

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For instance, I routinely quote my 6th grade English teacher when I say I "shouldn't do anything that involves a lot of writing as a career." Let's just say that grammar and I are barely on speaking terms.

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Well, when I was 13 we did a test at my school and it transpired that I was much better at languages than at maths. I still went on to study maths ;) If you are interested in something you can become very good at it, even if you're not going to be one of the world's best (something I found out to my detriment in maths ;) ).

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Originally posted by YvesM
If you are interested in something you can become very good at it, even if you're not going to be one of the world's best

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True, I agree 100%. :thumb:
I am a chess player (a hobbyist ;) ) and after I lost a game 3 years ago from the Greek chess champion what he said to me was: "Chess is 90% work and 10% talent". This is not obvious to most people.

This is an interesting discussion, and has made me thing of an interesting point.

How many other professions can we think of where people are 'hobbiests' ?

(1) Doctors. Nope.
(2) Lawyers. Nope.
(3) Architects. Unlikely.
(4) Chartered Surveyors. Nope.
(5) Nurses. Possibly, I'd say nope.

Why ? Because to become a true professional in any of these subjects requires you not only to do a degree, but also to do further qualifications which determine the quality of your work.

As I've said before - anyone can be a programmer. Dustbin man one day, programmer the next.

There are no professional bodies to which a programmer must affiliate themselves to be recognised as obtaining a certain level of competency.

This has really hurt the industry in my opinion. I'm sure we've all worked with people who we really don't know how they ever got employed in the first place.

I just find it highly interesting (and a little depressing) that we're having this discussion at all. It just simply wouldn't happen in other professions.

That said, developing software isn't really considered a professional job by most people : it's just considered a job done by nerds for nerds.

A pretty poor state of affairs if you ask me... ho hum.

Darwen.

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As I've said before - anyone can be a programmer. Dustbin man one day, programmer the next.

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If that Dustbin programmer starts at the bottom, but shows dedication, ingenuity and competancy, shouldnt he have the same chance that the guy with the piece of paper does? Does it bother you that you would have to compete with such a person? What if you were out coded by a former garbage man. As a matter of fact, what if he coded circles around you?

That would turn out to be quite embarassing for you.

What do you think is the likelyhood of that? If he was a bad coder, would he maintain his position?

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it's just considered a job done by nerds for nerds.

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So what.

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A pretty poor state of affairs if you ask me... ho hum.

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what do you do when you dont like something?

Get out. I am not saying you should...but really thats what I would do if I didn't like my field.

FWIW,

ahoodin

If a dustbinman could outcode me then I'd be very surprised.

Also even if they could, my experience of the necessities of design of software would beat them hands down.

And to get out of being a programmer ? Get real ! It's in my blood !

Darwen.

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If a dustbinman could outcode me then I'd be very surprised.

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IT happened to the lawnmower man! ;)

If the employer employs him, they are to blame if he is a stubstandard bit bucket man. It aint his fault. The employer is substandard, For not having any standards.
But if his job is to create a contact list application who cares. If he doesn't do it in the west, there are a host of folks who will do it in the east. I for one embrace change.

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And to get out of being a programmer ?

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Only if the dustbin guy can code you out!!! :D

ahoodin

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Originally Posted by darwen

Why ? Because to become a true professional in any of these subjects requires you not only to do a degree, but also to do further qualifications which determine the quality of your work.

_snip_

I just find it highly interesting (and a little depressing) that we're having this discussion at all. It just simply wouldn't happen in other professions.

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Actually, you bring out really good examples. One of the things that is more about the state of the profession is that it's not a complete profession yet. If you've read the Software Engineering Guide to the Body of Knowledge (which I highly recommend, www.swebok.org) you'll realize that Software Development is an adolecent profession one where the standards have not yet been completely set.

The professions you indicated above all went through a similar process, just at different times. Why do you think that doctors were sometimes "Quacks?"

Rob

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Originally Posted by darwen

If a dustbinman could outcode me then I'd be very surprised.

Also even if they could, my experience of the necessities of design of software would beat them hands down.

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Well....this is just the kind of attitude that divides professionals from "real" professionals. A "real" professional would have never said the above...since it is simply arrogant.

In other words, why do you classify people based on what they do? This dustbin man might have written some popular open source application in his spare time...using code paradigms you still dream about? That is a general problem these days...the respect among human beings...

And furthermore...why should a professional care? If I am get outcoded by a dustbin man, the only thing that I would do is hire him...why should I be embarrassed? Because he can code better than I? Well...there are thousands if not millions who are capable of coding better than I...so what?

True it was an arrogant statement. And I apologise if it was over the top.

However my main point is that to be a successful programmer takes dedication but not only that a vocation. Like being a good Doctor, Nurse, Lawyer whatever.

The best doctors etc usually have always wanted to do it. If they didn't they tend to drop out in the first year of University because it's exceptionally hard work.

I agree that software development is still a profession in its infancy. However it is a profession which is suffering, in my opinion, because there's no standards body.

Take the British Government who have just spent around £4 Billion on their National Health Service computer system, and it still doesn't work. It's a **** database for goodness sake. How hard can that be ?

Google copes with more clients every minute than the NHS computers deal with in a week, I'll bet. And I bet they didn't spend anything like that much.

Unfortunately, I suspect that the price of this is because there is no standards body to give people certification. In management of a large scale product all the way down to actually coding and testing it.

I feel there's still a tendency to throw large numbers of cheap, low-quality programmers at a problem instead of employing a few good-quality programmers for the same money paying each more.

But how do we know who's a good-quality programmer verses a low-quality programmer ? There's no certification !

This theory also explains why there's so much outsourcing going on.

Darwen.

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But how do we know who's a good-quality programmer verses a low-quality programmer ? There's no certification !

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Anakin Skywalker started out in a dump.

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A Dr Who a day keeps the Daleks away.

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And I think Darth has coded quite a few droid brains in his day. I think he could code circles around Tom Baker (Who), and he is a Nerd. Not certain about the other doctors tho.

ahoodin

I know that the world is not perfect, and it will never become a perfect world (at least as long as human beings are around).

I agree that one should actually have a passion for coding since as with everything else, you will only give your best performance if really like the stuff and have fun doing it. Nevertheless, I would not say, that someone, who hates his job cannot be a professional at all. I don't like many things about my passion 'coding' either (e.g. test my code), however, I do them with the same professionality as the rest although not enjoying my passion in this case...

Yes but at least Anakin Skywalker had the certification of 'Jedi Knight'.

Darwen.

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Originally Posted by darwen

Yes but at least Anakin Skywalker had the certification of 'Jedi Knight'.

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Sorry that would mean he would have a piece of paper so your wrong.

What about all the SUN certifications? And MSD? And all the other fangled certs that are out there. Dont forget that alot of companies require a degree in computer science to work in a dev position. If the company feels the cert or the degree is necessary, they will require it. Not all coding is like rocket science. for example Inventory tracking is not rocket science, so should we require that the coder has a degree to do it?

BTW, Billy Gates wasn't a college cat.

I am not saying that folks without degrees cant do rocket science, there are alot of intellectuals out there without college and certs, but NOT all coding is rocket science, and often times people without degrees succeed in a environment because they try harder.

I have my piece of paper, but that doesn't make me any smarter than the next guy who doesn't. It just makes me well informed. Also It makes me realize just how many hoops you have to jump through for no reason.

ahoodin

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Originally Posted by ahoodin

I have my piece of paper, but that doesn't make me any smarter than the next guy who doesn't. It just makes me well informed. Also It makes me realize just how many hoops you have to jump through for no reason.

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:thumb: Great view...congratulations...I wish more people with any kind of degree would view it like you...I have met many so-called genious coming from any university thinking they are god when it comes down to their field of degree...however, other than talking they could not do much...of course it depends on the individual, however, many of them thinks just because they studied they are better than others without any degree and this is what I don't like....never judge people based on their papers only...

I do not have any kind of degree and I am proud of it... :cool:

Keep up this great attitude...

Thanks Andreas,

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I have met many so-called genious coming from any university thinking they are god when it comes down to their field of degree...

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Those who can't *do* teach. Those who can't teach, teach gym.

-Jack Black ( School of Rock )

That is why a hobbiest is the best choice. Because they have learned how to actually *do*/accomplish before they go to work.

ahoodin