Why CP articles are better than CG!

Few issues:


1. The article submission system is still bad. The interface is designed like to be used in Mobile, and not on 17-22inch monitors.

2. The font used to display the article is very small. The ads are occupying more space, are of bigger font sizes.

3. The Article rating system makes no sense. No way to find out how many people have rated, how many times viewed et. al.

4. The article search is pathetic (as commented by many). Article search is done by search.internet.com, and gives redundant information (if correct article found by mistake!)

5. The comments area forces to view in different page, and not in same page. Puts many members away from it.

6. The article categories (to browse) are still stone age! Look at the 'Codeguru Navigation' in home page. Where are the new technologies??

7. The articles summary page does not show what technologies are used. It shows only when you open the article itself.

8. There is no easy navigation of some category.
Look at this: http://www.codeguru.com/cpp/cpp/cpp_mfc/
And this: http://www.codeproject.com/KB/dialog/
(These are not related searches, but see the big difference)

9. No monthly competition categorization. Does not show if particular article won prize.

10. The 'Code' does not stand out. It's almost of same color. Look at CP's 'Code' of any article. They also support 'Collapse/Expand’!

11. In CP, from particular article, you can also see other relevant articles. Where is that in CG??

12. No emphasis is given to the author - small photo, no details, no relevant articles, no prize winner specification...

All in all CG articles are full of small sized unreadable articles, which seem like gibberish content, in pile of ads.

Mr. Bradley Jones, it's high time that you help us and help codeguru! :wave:

We recently had a management change that should help going forward on adding features and updating this site (to some extent). We are also in the process of going through an ownership change as well (Internet.com was sold and is going through SEC approvals).

I mention this because in the first case, I think it will be a huge help. The second case is still to be seen what impact that will have; however, the future new owners and I have already talked about new, better CMS systems and such. Such 'big' changes won't happen over night, but there are time frames being discussed and such.

As to yoru twelve complaints. I've made many of the same ones ;). Some, I've not. I'll see what a we can do to spec out some of these changes. There is one of these that you -- and the members of Codeguru -- can help me with.

I've had a couple of new categories added to Codeguru, but not very many because it requires getting developers involved (not how it was suppose to work). If you guys can help me with what categories we should add, I'll do a push to get them all added at once. That is something we can fix quicker and a little easier.

Many of your other requests I have asked for and have been a low priority for our developers (who manage 100+ sites for Internet.com). I'll see what I can do to push some of these changes through again. This includes things like the # of raters and such.

We did do some monthly competitions for a while. There was little to no interest so it was hard to justify the extra work. There are a few things in this category that I have tried to push through as well. Things that recognize contributions, authoring, and more. I'll see what I can do in that space as well.

As to the article interface -- I've been complaining about it since the time I first saw what the developers created. I completely agree that it is a pain in several ways.

Bottom line - I can't argue with many of your points. To do some of it, I need some help from some of you. The moderators have seen some of the stuff I requested (high-level spec'd). I'll see if I can do another push to make some of this happen.

In the mean time -- Can you guys help me with the category topics you want added? That we should be able to make happen independently.

Brad!
(Thanks for the constructive criticism. It helps my case when you guys state this stuff!)

(( I should add -- the above is a quick response, written quickly. I'll come back to this and give it proper though and attention :) ))

May I request CG to enlarge the edit box for writing/editing the article? I hope that is trivial to do. Because even when the article length is quite short, there is still a lot of vertical scrolling to do, just because the edit box is too small.

Just a little suggestion which I hope the management can kindly consider.

Thank you!

The constructive criticism listed by the OP, Ajay Vijay, are very good and are most probably felt by many CG website users. I remember that there was a time CG was the king in terms of quality programming articles but sadly, CG has been superseded by CP which is constantly improving and expanding.

Ajay :
I'm sorry, but I have to disagree to the fact that CP articles are better than CG's. You will find that a lot of CP articles are just there for the sake of being published. As an article reviewer here for CG ( and Ajay, you should also know this ) is that we concentrate on Quality and not quantity ;) So, saying that CP articles are better than CG's is actually wrong, and unfair towards all the great authors that have contributed to CG. The last time you have submitted an article was in 2005...

I'm not attacking you or anything, I'm saying that if you feel that the CG article system has issues, blame that, and not the articles.

I really disagree with point numer 10 and number 12.

In reference to number 10 : The code does indeed stand out, if the article was correctly formatted with Pre tags, it looks very pretty.

In referenece to number 12 : There is a View Profile link, and an About the author section. When people click on the View Profile link, you'll get access to all the articles the author has written.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CBasicNet

I remember that there was a time CG was the king in terms of quality programming articles but sadly, CG has been superseded by CP

---

In quantity perhaps, but not with quality.

@HanneSThEGreaT
Yeah, the last article published was in year 2005. After that whenever I found time and thought of submitting article, the Article Sumbission page has put me down!

About point 12:
CP code content in easily differentiable than the other article content, and vice versa. Which is not in case with CG. Both contens intermingle. What if I am interested in Article only, and not in code? And later I need to quickly glimpse over code.

About point 13:
I am aware about 'About Author' link, and I would have mentioned it, but did not for brevity.
"You can view the Author's details only after clicking, and finding other articles. But that involves navigating to another page - which most users won't bother."

I still vouch for CP for quality, over CG. Most recent CG articles are of no use. They don't get hit by search engines. Reason? Developers aren't looking for the concepts presented in CG. I am not counting on quality. But when I search for some concept, I would find it on CP!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ajay Vijay

About point 12:
CP code content in easily differentiable than the other article content, and vice versa. Which is not in case with CG. Both contens intermingle. What if I am interested in Article only, and not in code? And later I need to quickly glimpse over code.

---

Sorry to sound like a broken record here, but I still disagree on this point ( especially ).

If we take a look at this article ( for example ) :

http://www.codeproject.com/KB/graphi...ictureBox.aspx

Both code and content intermingle here as well. Identifying the code is quite obvious, agree ¿

Now, let's look at this article on CodeGuru :

http://www.codeguru.com/vb/gen/vb_mi...php/c16227__3/

Tell me, honestly, isn't the code section very obvious here as well ¿ :confused:

This is the last thing I want to add ( I forgot earlier ) :blush:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ajay Vijay

About point 13:
I am aware about 'About Author' link, and I would have mentioned it, but did not for brevity.
"You can view the Author's details only after clicking, and finding other articles. But that involves navigating to another page - which most users won't bother."

---

What makes their Author section more special than CG's ¿

I mean, if we go back to the same CP article :

http://www.codeproject.com/KB/graphi...ictureBox.aspx

And scroll down, we'll see the same type of info ( as it is here on CG ), OK, fine, the facebook profiles etc. are ther as well, but is that info really absoultely critical to know ¿. Ah, OK, their pictures are a tad bigger, does that really make so much difference ¿

It shows the same type of summary about the author as CG, unless there is something else ¿ ¿ :confused:

Just a side note....

Articles posted on Codeguru do get exposure that article on other sites don't get. For example, most article listed on CodeGuru get linked and listed on Developer.com (see bottom of home page) as well as on internet.com (see Codeguru box, http://www.internet.com/developer/ )

Brad!

As far as #12, maybe a communication problem?

Microsoft forums allow you to paste in a code sample, and have it automatically 'compiled to color' as it were.

How hard is it to do? Not sure... Makes it easier to read, though.

Using the IE8's 'Developer Tools' window, I managed to expand the textbox's size (cols=140).

How long do the guys at Codeguru need to do the same? :rolleyes:

My wife and me a long with my mother like this forum very much

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chipmunk Baby

My wife and me a long with my mother like this forum very much

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OK, but what does that have to do with CodeGuru Articles vs. CodeProject Articles ¿

I update my articles quite often with new article sections and new sample code to correct the previous bugs or new features and because CodeGuru articles are published to the homepage less frequently than CodeProject, it may seen to the other CG users that I am spamming CG with my articles.

As a sidenote to Brad: I always publish my articles on CG first, then port them over to CP after a few months, so that CodeGuru has the exclusivity of publishing my articles first before CodeProject.

I know I've been negative, and few of you might not like it. But it's for improvement. :)

A major irritation faced by me! I am currently writing an article, and took few hours break. The browser window was open (where we type the article content). I came back, started typing few more, invested few minutes to get groundwork, and then I hit 'Save'.
And then I see login page. Okay, I gave my credentials, and I see the same page. But my content was NOT saved. I was very much frustrated! :mad:

Clicking on back doesn't work either, the content is lost!:thumbd:

Ajay -

I've brought this issue to the developer's attention. Of course, you know they say you should save often..... :)


Seriously, I've forwarded your post to the dev's.

Brad!

Quote:

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Of course, you know they say you should save often.....

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Agreed. But it's not about 'saving' regularly, which I anyway do.
It's like modifying code in Visual Studio (after few hours of last save), and an attempt is made to save the fresh content. Now VS says you cannot save since you are logged out, and also discards the newly typed content!

Ajay, what I frequently do is to type the whole article first, break it up into logical pages, then, when I have to submit an article; I just paste it in, one page at a time. It really does save a lot of work when submitting. it is a lot of work upfront though, but issues like these don't arise. :)

I agree with your frustration. Our forms should retain content.

(Like Hannes, I use a different editor and then cut and paste into Codeguru. Regardless, we have an editor that should work better.

Hannes, I don't find any good plain HTML editor to do my work. Word and VS puts extra unnecessary stuff, so can't use that HTML content. Downloaded few free versions of other HTML-editors, but none saved me. The only good online editor I found was http://htmledit.squarefree.com/

Many times I press Ctrl+B, Ctrl+I as we do in full-mode forum editor, but it then brings IE's Favourites or History... :(

OK, I see your problem.

You'll need either FrontPage or DreamWeaver - those are the only 2 web page editors I trust.

What I'll do from my side, if you want, is :

You could send me the documents, and I'll convert them to HTML for you, as I have access to Frontpage and DreamWeaver. I have done it for some members before. Once I am done, I will send it back to you, and you can then submit it :)

If you're interested, send me a PM, and then we'll exchange email addresses and so forth.

I usually hand-type my article in html in a text editor like Notepad++, then I copy and paste it into the CodeGuru Editor. The downsides of using a text editor, instead of a html editor, is that the writer will make quite a number of html errors which he/she needs to find out by previewing the html before submitting the article to CodeGuru. The CodeGuru Editor is way too small in size, can we request to have it enlarged? Because we still need to edit the images tags in CodeGuru Editor.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CBasicNet

Because we still need to edit the images tags in CodeGuru Editor.

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Now that someone has mentioned it. I never liked the special tags needed for the images, in the CG editor.

Isn't there some way that this can automatically be picked up by the program, then automatically be translated from <IMG SRC...> to [PicName.Extension] ¿

The issue is the need to upload the images. If the images are put onto the Codeguru server (which needs to be done), then you are going to have to change the URL for the images regardless.

(Actually you could argue that if relative URLs are used, then that is not so true. Let me raise this to our developers.)

Brad!

My grievences, are not extensive, but very important.

A. The updating of the articles was very poor in the past.
I don't know if its fixed yet, but I will never update another article again, until I know for sure.
The articles I updated before, ended up changed when published, so that the code no longer worked,
and the pages were mismatched, some updated, some not.
The readers have no idea what to make of it.
It was like pulling teeth, to ATTEMPT to do anything about it.
I got several emails from people wondering why my code wouldn't even begin to compile.


B. Please leave our line breaks, EXACTLY where we put them!
I'm not sure if line breaks are automatcally erased or if the editor is ruining the articles. Sorry if that sounds offensive.
My recent article looked pretty crappy, and on some pages, the writing went way off into the sunset................
My big problem, is that everybody is asking me why, I didn't write it correctly. AARRRRG!
It took me a long time to make sure it was formatting correctly, so that
the sentences and paragraphs are grouped together, in a semi-professional manner.

Example of what looks more professional:

Quote:

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Jack and Jill went up the hill, to fetch a pail of water. Jack
fell down, and broke his crown.

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Or:

Quote:

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Jack and Jill went up the hill, to fetch a pail of water.
Jack fell down, and broke his crown.

---

Count to ten.....
Thank you for listening

For both of your points you need to learn basics of HTML!

<p> or <br> is needed to give a line break or paragraph break. Merely inserting the newline (by Enter key) wont create a newline in webpage. This is similar to using "\n" (or "\r\n") sequence in C/C++ language. Just putting new line like:

Code:

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printf("This is line one and "
    "this is line two");

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wont create two lines in output (you may need to put '\' after these two string-constants depending on compiler).
But you must put "\n" to create new lines.

Code:

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printf("This is line one and \n"
    "this is line two");

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The code files you upload might have been tested in your compiler, and user who downloaded the code might have another compiler, or another version of same compiler/IDE. It's your responsibility to test in various development environments and OSs. You can target most important ones to test, not all.

The article reviewers won't change the contents of attachments you put. Spelling, grammar and other aesthetics are checked and changed, however - but not code!

Sorry that you wrote all that for nothing, but you are totally wrong.

Quote:

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<p> or <br> is needed to give a line break or paragraph break.

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Obviously.
The question is, why do they disappear when published by codeguru.

I use notepad, and I always check and PRE-view my article before publishing.

Yes, they do change minor things on purpose, and sometimes accidently the compiler they use
messes up the code {article page code with pre tags}.
The editor needs to check his/her work, like I do.
Luckily Hannes is up to the challenge.

Quote:

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The question is, why do they disappear when published by codeguru.

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They don't get disappeared! Check to 'Preview' the article in codeguru itself.

Hey Ajay,

Quote:

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Clicking on back doesn't work either, the content is lost!

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That happened to me once, and I was really mad at myself for allowing it to possibly happen.
This can happen if your internet settings are setup for security.
It doesn't always occur, but occasionally you'll get logged out, and loose anything you had open.
Fairly common with PHP forums.
I don't think they are going to solve this issue, because it's not totally the fault of the forum.
There may be some steps to minimize this, but I'm not an expert either.

Quote:

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They don't get disappeared! Check to 'Preview' the article in codeguru itself.

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Dude, please don't oppose me, when I actually know what I'm talking about.
I do pre-view it at the codeguru!
It can happen.
It did happen.
It does happen.
It would continue to happen if nothing is done about it.

Not a web scriptie, but I can understand that the content may be buffered when asking to verify the user. When verified, the same buffered content can be used by web server.

I can address the changes regarding line breaks in the textual paragraphs.

That would most likely be done by an editor on Codeguru. The reason soft returns (line breaks) in text would be removed is to allow the width of the sentences in the paragraph wrap based on the browser as well as to allow the paragraphs flow as would be expected in standard English. Most of the times when line breaks are used, the information looks and reads "choppy." Unless you are writing poetry, it is better to leave them out and present things in paragraphs.

If we were talking about line breaks in code, I'd absolutely side with you guys as the technical experts. We are talking about grammar and textual presentations. When we make changes to the text from a grammatical perspective, it is to make you look better.

Brad



This is 'fixing' an article just as it is when an editor fixes a misspelled word, or something that is grammatically incorrect.

If there is a specific reason you believe the text should not be changed, then add a comment at the top of your article (HTML Comment) or within the notes box. Personally, I think specifying individual sentence breaks is goofy in that it violates the standard grammatical concept of paragraph flow and thus is poor grammatical presentation.

This response is the same post as above (for
the most part). If you are using a resolution
of about 800 wide, you think it is fine. If you
are using 1024 or higher, you are cursing me for
wasting vertical space rather than letting the
text flow to the width my browser supports.


---------------------------------------------


I can address the changes regarding line
breaks in the textual paragraphs.

That would most likely be done by an editor
on Codeguru. The reason soft returns (line
breaks) in text would be removed is to allow
the width of the sentences in the paragraph
wrap based on the browser as well as to
allow the paragraphs flow as would be expected
in standard English. Most of the times when line
breaks are used, the information looks and reads
"choppy." Unless you are writing poetry, it is better
to leave them out and present things in paragraphs.

If we were talking about line breaks in code,
I'd absolutely side with you guys as the technical
experts. We are talking about grammar and
textual presentations. When we make changes
to the text from a grammatical perspective, it is
to make you look better.

Brad

I had a feeling that the editor was under the impression that its wrong or goofy to put line breaks in there.
A professional writer gave me that tip, so I strongly disagree.
I also remember that rule from middle school, and it's not just for poetry.
Starting a sentence near the end of a line, is a no-no.

Regardless of our opinion on grammer, the fact still remains that my text flies way off the screen.....
The reader must scroll to the side to read certain pages.
Wicked GOOFY.

I just noticed, that only one page of my last article, is now flying off the screen, so this may vary depending on the ads.
A proof read may have missed this then.

Please take a look at this page, and tell me if you can read the first paragraph.
http://www.codeguru.com/vb/gen/vb_sy...php/c16501__4/


Here is my perspective, and valid argument. (IE7, IE8, XP/7)
http://c3.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/i...955dd58456.jpg

Ah -

That is a result of the width of the code and is tied more to the way HTML and web pages work than to grammar. The specific "goofiness" that you point out will actually go away in the next major update we do of Codeguru (likely within the next 30 days).

There is a secondary is that is tied to how the PRE tag works in HTML documents. The PRE tag is what all of us use for code listings. That way to really fix that is to have scroll boxes for source code listings (something being looked at in an update for Codeguru right now as well).

As to:

Quote:

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Starting a sentence near the end of a line, is a no-no.

---

I'm not aware of rules in the Chicago Manual of Style (standard book used by virtually all publishers) regarding where a line starts. I'm actually going to look into this on this out of curiosity because I'm not currently aware of any such rule for standard writing.

Let me add --- Thanks for the dialog/discussion. If people have issues, the only way we can know what they are and address them is if they speak up. I believe our ultimate goal is to make you the author as well as this site look good.

Brad!

I should add -- (This is me talking personally and not representing this site) --

Quote:

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A professional writer gave me that tip, so I strongly disagree.

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I know a lot of professional writers. In fact as an internationally best-selling author with nearly two dozen books and over a hundred articles to my name, I'm a professional writer. It just isn't my day job.

If I want to know how to convert concepts to words, I'd ask a writer. If I wanted to know how to construct words into correct grammatical structure, I'd ask an editor. ;) :)

Regardless, let's see if the update that is coming for Codeguru article pages helps alleviate some of your issues. Give me 30 days with that, as it is coming.

Brad!

Okay thanks!

I tried to find out if there is an actual rule for line breaks.
I cannot find any such official rule, other than for hyphenation.

This is more a writing style, that makes it easier for the reader.
The reader does not have to remember the sentence fragment, while they are returning left, to the next line. Especially long lines.
It breaks up the flow of thought otherwise.
Published books likely save alot of paper though.

This style is useless, until the forum upgrades come, so I completely understand.

Thank you for acknowledging the issues are real.

I had just always assumed this was a cliche topic. I guess CodeProject appeared to be all about the project, while CodeGuru was more about teaching or the learning process. I always felt that where CG and CP supplied a complementary relationship. I actually prefer the interface to CG a bit, as I find the websites menu driven interface a little more friendly. I guess maybe there is a gap in quality? Or perhaps CG has fallen behind in some regard? I never felt that way.

1. Make the article edit-box for project a bit wider... please, thank you. It's really hard typing into a small box
That's about it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Conrad Braam

1. Make the article edit-box for project a bit wider... please, thank you. It's really hard typing into a small box
That's about it.

---

You can say it -- our article edit box sucks ;) :)

It has been on my 'fix it' list since the first day it was released. One of the biggest fixes I've asked our developers to incorporate is to "make the article submission process user friendly." Our developers are.... developers ( ;) ) just like you guys. I've asked them to create something they'd be willing to use :).

That is a core "fix it" part of the update we are working to complete.

Brad!

lol, can I say sux too?

I always thought those little boxes were a bit ridiculous, but you've put it more succinctly.

Quote:

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Our developers are.... developers ( ) just like you guys

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Web developers are supposed to be excellent UI designers and testers! :)

Thanks again Brad for trawling the forums to give all and sundry help here.

I stick to CodeGuru because it was the easiest place to post 5 years ago. At the time I did not have a good internet line, and used to have endless login and page-loading problems, which CG did not suffer from. CodeProject have definitely got more 'flash', but have also moved into other non-relevant areas, and tried to compete head-on with a half-dozen other niche developer sites, quite successfully I might add.
Solid is good.