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March 16th, 2004, 03:30 PM
#46
Re: labor arbitrage
Originally posted by JMS
It's about the whole sale exportation of an American Industry for the short term return.
Sadly, this is the way capitalism works in today's modern world. it used to be about building strong companies by combining dedicated staff with innovative ideas (i.e. looking after your customers). Now, it's all about looking after your shareholders. Customers and staff are just suckers to be sold down the river.
Of course, we all know it's futile and unsustainable but hey, the canny shareholders will have all got themselves well out of it by the time the company goes bust. They're only interested in finding some other mug to bankrupt.
"A problem well stated is a problem half solved.” - Charles F. Kettering
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March 16th, 2004, 03:35 PM
#47
Ohh I can agree with you John...it's one reason why I will never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever again work for a large corporation...though sometimes you can't help it when being bought out. But to sit and watch sharp hard working people loose their jobs not because of money, but becaause of 'overlap' really ticks you off...I stick with small to medium sized companies now...hope people look at their portfolios and aren't hypocrites when it comes this...
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March 16th, 2004, 03:45 PM
#48
Sadly, this is the way capitalism works in today's modern world.
dribble on....
You see that's my point. This isn't capitalizm. It's something else. Capatilizm is about competition, fair playing field, and inspireing the best product at the cheapest price on that field.
These aren't independent concepts.. You're post implies apathy.. man get over that.. get fired up and start calling your neighbors.. We're taking the town back!!
This is about a lack of competion, a lack of a fair playing field, and who cares about the best product because company X is the only company who can make the widget anyway.
This isn't about capitalizm so much as it's about a few folks milking the system to the expense of everybody else. This isn't about Dem's or Rep.. because they both suck..... But somethings going to change because this is the #1 voting issue in this election and if Kerry ( who's talking a good game now ) crawfishes on this then we'll throw his butt out too.... Like I said before.. We need a Franklin or a Teddy to come forward again.. they're the last two guys to re level the playing field back in the late 1800's and early 1900's..... We need that again...
More proof American companies aren't good at making things run more efficiently.. they're good at making profits. If they can do it by efficientcy they will.. but if they can do it by warping the playing field.. just as good.
dribble off...
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March 16th, 2004, 04:02 PM
#49
that would be all fine and all..but your missing one importnat thing...the CUSTOMER that's why all this outsourcing hoopla will blow over. When people are calling dell (which they did and are) and are saying 'I'm not buying another of your products because I can't understand the person on the other end of the phone' then dell thinks...hmm better move that tech support center back over to the states.
When the quality of the product produced drops, people look for alternatives so let em outsource, I'll fire up my made in the USA company and produce a quality product, make it into a large corporation, then outsource my labour.
you can fool me once into to buying a piece of junk...and you can fool me twice if it's happy hour with free wings..but yer not fooling me a third time...
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March 17th, 2004, 03:59 AM
#50
Originally posted by Mick
When people are calling dell (which they did and are) and are saying 'I'm not buying another of your products because I can't understand the person on the other end of the phone' then dell thinks...hmm better move that tech support center back over to the states.
They'll probably take the next flight to India and shout at the manager for not properly training the employees to speek in american accent. I've read reports of some British company giving customers an option to either process their reqest outside their country in the same day or do it there itself, processing in 2 days. And nearly 80% opted for the outsourced processing.
When it comes to outsourcing esp in India, the main thing is cheap labor, not because it is unskilled. The so-called skilled labor is also cheap when compared to west. In my posts I've quoted many rates in India, and there is not a single rate that is quoted against, saying it is cheap in the west.
OK just consider a case. Brilliant students getting into reputed companies (like wipro, infosis for instance) won't get a salary of 50,000RS even after 2-3 years. Not because he doesn't have the skill, but because the payscale is very high (10x the average sal). OK now that is equalent to 4.5USD per hour 8 hrs a day, which is almost the minimum per hour wage there.
The problem with india is there is no adequate facility for good training. That will change soon. The age of iron and steel are over. It doesn't take 50 years to do what you did in the past. The projection is 2020 for India to become a developed country. I, normally a pessimist(when it comes to development in India), start to belive that India will be able to make it by then. I see the changes in the attitude and orientation.
I don't understand why you make so much noise against outsourcing and Inda while your politicians are busy asking inda to open out markets more. I'm very sure, US cannot ban outsourcing. No matter which of your presidents (even the dead) come to power. Yesterday Mr. Collin Powell was here for talks about free trade and he left saying that outsourcing is a "reality of the 21st century". Outsourcing is here to stay. It is a part of globalization. Those who are against outsourcing should also be against globalization.
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March 22nd, 2004, 02:00 PM
#51
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March 22nd, 2004, 11:21 PM
#52
Although I don't always agree with CNN, I do find that Lou Dobbs is probably their most underrated asset. I am glad to see he is breaking out from just reporting financial news.
http://money.cnn.com/2004/03/09/comm...obbs/index.htm
http://money.cnn.com/2004/03/11/comm...obbs/index.htm
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March 23rd, 2004, 04:41 PM
#53
taxes and employment
I've been following this thread for some time, one of the comments that I've seen(unfortunately I can't point at the exact comment at the moment or who said because I forgot where I read it), talked about how our government would import cheaper labor to do americans' jobs. My answer.... why are you surprised? We've been screeching at our politicians that we want to pay lower taxes and at the same time maintain the same quality of service that the government provides, so something has to give. Either lower taxes and standards or keep them the same and keep the standards up, or somehow manage to significantly lower your costs and you'll best of both worlds. And even now after the big dot come bust, governments(state, local, federal, etc.) are tightening their belts. This was inevitable.
And about the fact that many of us are worried about unemployment, I understand(if I get something when I get out of college, I'll be happy). But screaming at the politicians or the companies won't solve the fact people need jobs and now. The best way for programmers, IT specialists, electrical engineers(those guys got hit especially hard), etc. to get back into the work force is to further train/educate yourself, when you have a BS, go back to school for an MS(and if necessary a PhD), that way when you're done and come out, your employer will look at the fact that you're willing to learn(something that every company wants in their workforce).
NOTE: the second paragraph was just a partial solution, not a silver bullet for the whole outsourcing problem
P.S.: the lou dobbs reports are very true
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March 30th, 2004, 05:30 AM
#54
just curious about this....
Originally posted by Mathew Joy
.......
..... The moto is to be a developed country by 2020.....
what's the others'(excluding indians' ) opinon on this statement?
i seems that i've heard similar confident statement from another devloping country in last centry's 50s or so, (their plan seemed also be within around 15~20 years to be "developed"...), and that country seems still developing......
or what do you really mean by "a developed country"?
but whatever, no matter developed or not, outsourcing to India really hurts american IT labor force (although not IT companies) a lot....
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April 7th, 2004, 11:21 AM
#55
Found this on a site.
Myths about job loss and outsourcing
Plain facts, lay all of today’s myths about outsourcing to rest. But there is still a real danger that politicians working with incomplete or incorrect information will hobble American competitiveness. Scapegoating poor Third World countries, “Benedict Arnold CEOs,” and free trade will not improve the U.S. economy or labor market, but would likely cause great harm. Robert McTeer of the Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas summed up the promise of government action on outsourcing well: “If we are lucky, we can get through the year without doing something really, really stupid.”
Myth #1: America is losing jobs.
Fact: More Americans are employed than ever before.
The household employment survey of Americans indicates that there are 1.9 million more Americans employed since the recession ended in November 2001. There are 138.3 million workers in the U.S. economy today—more than ever before.
Myth #2: The low unemployment rate excludes many discouraged workers.
Fact: Unemployment is dropping, despite a surging labor force.
Not only is the unemployment rate low in historical terms at 5.6 percent, but the workforce has been growing—there are now 2.03 million more people in the labor force than in late 2001. Without a higher rate of unemployment or a shrinking workforce, there is no evidence of growing discouragement.
Myth #3: Outsourcing will cause a net loss of 3.3 million jobs.
Fact: Outsourcing has little net impact, and represents less than 1 percent of gross job turnover.
Over the past decade, America has lost an average of 7.71 million jobs every quarter. The most alarmist prediction of jobs lost to outsourcing, by Forrester Research, estimates that 3.3 million service jobs will be outsourced between 2000 and 2015—an average of 55,000 jobs outsourced per quarter, or only 0.71 percent of all jobs lost per quarter.
Myth #4: Free trade, free labor, and free capital harm the U.S. economy.
Fact: Economic freedom is necessary for economic growth, new jobs, and higher living standards.
A study conducted for the 2004 Index of Economic Freedom confirms a strong, positive relationship between economic freedom and per capita GDP. Countries that adopt policies antithetical to economic freedom, including trying to protect jobs of a few from outsourcing, tend to retard economic growth, which leads to fewer jobs.
Myth #5: A job outsourced is a job lost.
Fact: Outsourcing means efficiency.
Outsourcing is a means of getting more final output with lower cost inputs, which leads to lower prices for all U.S. firms and families. Lower prices lead directly to higher standards of living and more jobs in a growing economy.
Myth #6: Outsourcing is a one-way street.
Fact: Outsourcing works both ways.
The number of jobs coming from other countries to the U.S. (jobs “insourced”) is growing at a faster rate than jobs lost overseas. According to the Organization for International Investment, the numbers of manufacturing jobs insourced to the United States grew by 82 percent, while the number outsourced overseas grew by only 23 percent. Moreover, these insourced jobs are often higher-paying than those outsourced.
Myth #7: American manufacturing jobs are moving to poor nations, especially China.
Fact: Nations are losing manufacturing jobs worldwide, even China.
America is not alone in experiencing declines in manufacturing jobs. U.S. manufacturing employment declined 11 percent between 1995 and 2002, which is identical to the average world decline. China has seen a sharper decline, losing 15 percent of its industrial jobs over the same period.
Myth #8: Only greedy corporations benefit from outsourcing.
Fact: Everyone benefits from outsourcing.
Outsourcing is about efficiency. As costs decline, every consumer benefits, including those who lose their jobs to outsourcing. A 2003 study by Michael W. Klein, Scott Schuh, and Robert K. Triest, which includes dislocation costs in its calculations, shows the benefits of trade outweighing its costs by 100 percent.
Myth #9: The government can protect American workers from outsourcing.
Fact: Protectionism is isolationism and has a history of failure.
Proposals to punish businesses that outsource jobs, institute tariffs, or change tax rules will carry unintended consequences if enacted. Such measures would injure U.S. firms that export goods and services and erode U.S. competitiveness, often in unexpected ways. Recent steel tariffs, for example, cost jobs in dozens of industries while raising prices for consumers.
Myth #10: Unemployment benefits should be extended beyond 26 weeks.
Fact: Jobless benefits are already working
The median duration of unemployment is now 10.9 weeks; most workers are covered by existing benefits, which last for 26 weeks. Extending today’s coverage to 39 weeks would cost billions of dollars and have little impact.
CONCLUSION
America's workers deserve a more informative, less partisan debate on outsourcing. The negative impact of outsourcing on the economy and American employment has been greatly exaggerated, and the benefits of outsourcing almost entirely ignored.
Tim Kane, Ph.D., is Research Fellow in Macroeconomics in the Center for Data Analysis, Brett Schaefer is Jay Kingham Fellow in the Center for International Trade and Economics (CITE), and Alison Fraser is Director of the Thomas A. Roe Institute for Economic Policy Studies, at The Heritage Foundation.
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April 7th, 2004, 12:04 PM
#56
This looks to have come from a study of some sort. Just out of interest, do you know who funded it?
"A problem well stated is a problem half solved.” - Charles F. Kettering
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April 7th, 2004, 02:59 PM
#57
Just out of interest, do you know who funded it?
Good question. I did not think of that. Too busy to research and find out, but here is the link to the site.
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Tra...nAid/wm467.cfm
-Satish
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April 7th, 2004, 10:08 PM
#58
Those guys are one of the most anti-regulation, pro big corporation, hardcore right wing conservative groups out there. Don't believe a word of what they say.
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April 8th, 2004, 01:01 AM
#59
It doesn't surprise me. Most of their so called "facts" can be easily debunked - for example:-
Fact: Unemployment is dropping, despite a surging labor force.
Being a European I can't really speak from an American perspective but I know that in Britain, the falls in unemployment have been due to government massaging of the figures, rather than a tangible reduction. For example, 20 years ago, full time students were included in the unemployment statistics. Now (because we have a substantially higher number of students) they don't get included. Similarly, people who are physically incapable of work (e.g. those with severe immobility) are no longer counted as unemployed. School leavers (i.e. those who don't go on to university) are also not counted any more. Our government also introduced a scheme whereby after a certain time (6 weeks, I think) an unemployed person is offered some derisory, low paid job. Usually, the job pays less than they could claim in benefits so most people turn it down. However, anyone who turns down the offer is classed as "voluntarily unemployed" and taken out of the figures. It all helps. The bottom line is that figures can be made to say whatever you want.
My favourite from that list is probably this one though:-
Fact: Everyone benefits from outsourcing.
Boy, I'd love to know how they arrived at that one!
"A problem well stated is a problem half solved.” - Charles F. Kettering
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April 8th, 2004, 04:19 AM
#60
Right-wing or not, history has taught us that de-regulation and greater openness has benefited America(and other countries that followed suit) more than most admit.
Look at China, once an inflexible government/socialist economy, now their economy is booming so fast that most industrialized countries only dream of matching progress like that. And I wouldn't be surprised if there were less manufacturing jobs in the world. Earlier what was done by people can now be done by machines or robots(which work longer, don't give complaints, never take a day off, etc.)
Also, if one were to look at the employment(the current one atleast) of the US, it's low, REALLY low if you were to compare it to some other industrialized countries. In europe, where socialism is a the norm, finding figures of 10, 15 or even as much as 20 percent unemployment is not difficult to find. And I'm not talking about eastern europe, the dirt-poor parts of europe. Those figures are currently in Germany and France, the wealthiest and most powerful countries in the EU.
And if one were to look at the US during the 1800's. During that time, America was industrializing at a break neck speed(sort of like China is today). One of the things that came with industrialization were steam engines. However, at the time there were different gauges, types, switching signals, etc. As a result there had to be special points where the cargo from trains would have to be unloaded and loaded once more because the lengths of track would differ. The government wanted a system that would be more or less universal, so that people and goods would be able to go across the country cheaply and quickly. As the government tried to standardize the whole system, the workers that were responsible for loading and unloading the cargo from one type of train to another, revolted and Uncle Sam had to send in Federal Troops to quell the riots. As a result we have inherited a quick and efficient transportation system that only helped this country grow. Had we did nothing or even worse, defended the insane system, our economy would have suffered greatly and I doubt that we would be the mighty nation we are today. After all, it's the economy that defines a country, without it, there is very little left.
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