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Thread: Dev Article Discussion: What's the Difference Between a Hobbyist and a Professional?

  1. #16
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    Re: Dev Article Discussion: What's the Difference Between a Hobbyist and a Professional?

    If a dustbinman could outcode me then I'd be very surprised.

    Also even if they could, my experience of the necessities of design of software would beat them hands down.

    And to get out of being a programmer ? Get real ! It's in my blood !

    Darwen.
    www.pinvoker.com - PInvoker - the .NET PInvoke Interface Exporter for C++ Dlls.

  2. #17
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    Re: Dev Article Discussion: What's the Difference Between a Hobbyist and a Profession

    If a dustbinman could outcode me then I'd be very surprised.
    IT happened to the lawnmower man!

    If the employer employs him, they are to blame if he is a stubstandard bit bucket man. It aint his fault. The employer is substandard, For not having any standards.
    But if his job is to create a contact list application who cares. If he doesn't do it in the west, there are a host of folks who will do it in the east. I for one embrace change.

    And to get out of being a programmer ?
    Only if the dustbin guy can code you out!!!

    ahoodin

  3. #18
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    Re: Dev Article Discussion: What's the Difference Between a Hobbyist and a Professional?

    Quote Originally Posted by darwen
    Why ? Because to become a true professional in any of these subjects requires you not only to do a degree, but also to do further qualifications which determine the quality of your work.

    _snip_

    I just find it highly interesting (and a little depressing) that we're having this discussion at all. It just simply wouldn't happen in other professions.
    Actually, you bring out really good examples. One of the things that is more about the state of the profession is that it's not a complete profession yet. If you've read the Software Engineering Guide to the Body of Knowledge (which I highly recommend, www.swebok.org) you'll realize that Software Development is an adolecent profession one where the standards have not yet been completely set.

    The professions you indicated above all went through a similar process, just at different times. Why do you think that doctors were sometimes "Quacks?"

    Rob

  4. #19
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    Re: Dev Article Discussion: What's the Difference Between a Hobbyist and a Profession

    Quote Originally Posted by darwen
    If a dustbinman could outcode me then I'd be very surprised.

    Also even if they could, my experience of the necessities of design of software would beat them hands down.
    Well....this is just the kind of attitude that divides professionals from "real" professionals. A "real" professional would have never said the above...since it is simply arrogant.

    In other words, why do you classify people based on what they do? This dustbin man might have written some popular open source application in his spare time...using code paradigms you still dream about? That is a general problem these days...the respect among human beings...

    And furthermore...why should a professional care? If I am get outcoded by a dustbin man, the only thing that I would do is hire him...why should I be embarrassed? Because he can code better than I? Well...there are thousands if not millions who are capable of coding better than I...so what?
    Last edited by Andreas Masur; December 17th, 2004 at 03:08 AM.
    Ciao, Andreas

    "Software is like sex, it's better when it's free." - Linus Torvalds


    Article(s): Allocators (STL) Function Objects (STL)

  5. #20
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    Re: Dev Article Discussion: What's the Difference Between a Hobbyist and a Professional?

    True it was an arrogant statement. And I apologise if it was over the top.

    However my main point is that to be a successful programmer takes dedication but not only that a vocation. Like being a good Doctor, Nurse, Lawyer whatever.

    The best doctors etc usually have always wanted to do it. If they didn't they tend to drop out in the first year of University because it's exceptionally hard work.

    I agree that software development is still a profession in its infancy. However it is a profession which is suffering, in my opinion, because there's no standards body.

    Take the British Government who have just spent around 4 Billion on their National Health Service computer system, and it still doesn't work. It's a **** database for goodness sake. How hard can that be ?

    Google copes with more clients every minute than the NHS computers deal with in a week, I'll bet. And I bet they didn't spend anything like that much.

    Unfortunately, I suspect that the price of this is because there is no standards body to give people certification. In management of a large scale product all the way down to actually coding and testing it.

    I feel there's still a tendency to throw large numbers of cheap, low-quality programmers at a problem instead of employing a few good-quality programmers for the same money paying each more.

    But how do we know who's a good-quality programmer verses a low-quality programmer ? There's no certification !

    This theory also explains why there's so much outsourcing going on.

    Darwen.
    www.pinvoker.com - PInvoker - the .NET PInvoke Interface Exporter for C++ Dlls.

  6. #21
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    Talking Re: Dev Article Discussion: What's the Difference Between a Hobbyist and a Profession

    But how do we know who's a good-quality programmer verses a low-quality programmer ? There's no certification !
    Anakin Skywalker started out in a dump.

    A Dr Who a day keeps the Daleks away.
    And I think Darth has coded quite a few droid brains in his day. I think he could code circles around Tom Baker (Who), and he is a Nerd. Not certain about the other doctors tho.

    ahoodin
    Last edited by ahoodin; December 22nd, 2004 at 06:16 AM. Reason: spelling err

  7. #22
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    Re: Dev Article Discussion: What's the Difference Between a Hobbyist and a Profession

    I know that the world is not perfect, and it will never become a perfect world (at least as long as human beings are around).

    I agree that one should actually have a passion for coding since as with everything else, you will only give your best performance if really like the stuff and have fun doing it. Nevertheless, I would not say, that someone, who hates his job cannot be a professional at all. I don't like many things about my passion 'coding' either (e.g. test my code), however, I do them with the same professionality as the rest although not enjoying my passion in this case...
    Ciao, Andreas

    "Software is like sex, it's better when it's free." - Linus Torvalds


    Article(s): Allocators (STL) Function Objects (STL)

  8. #23
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    Re: Dev Article Discussion: What's the Difference Between a Hobbyist and a Professional?

    Yes but at least Anakin Skywalker had the certification of 'Jedi Knight'.

    Darwen.
    www.pinvoker.com - PInvoker - the .NET PInvoke Interface Exporter for C++ Dlls.

  9. #24
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    Post Re: Dev Article Discussion: What's the Difference Between a Hobbyist and a Profession

    Quote Originally Posted by darwen
    Yes but at least Anakin Skywalker had the certification of 'Jedi Knight'.
    Sorry that would mean he would have a piece of paper so your wrong.

    What about all the SUN certifications? And MSD? And all the other fangled certs that are out there. Dont forget that alot of companies require a degree in computer science to work in a dev position. If the company feels the cert or the degree is necessary, they will require it. Not all coding is like rocket science. for example Inventory tracking is not rocket science, so should we require that the coder has a degree to do it?

    BTW, Billy Gates wasn't a college cat.

    I am not saying that folks without degrees cant do rocket science, there are alot of intellectuals out there without college and certs, but NOT all coding is rocket science, and often times people without degrees succeed in a environment because they try harder.

    I have my piece of paper, but that doesn't make me any smarter than the next guy who doesn't. It just makes me well informed. Also It makes me realize just how many hoops you have to jump through for no reason.

    ahoodin

  10. #25
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    Re: Dev Article Discussion: What's the Difference Between a Hobbyist and a Profession

    Quote Originally Posted by ahoodin
    I have my piece of paper, but that doesn't make me any smarter than the next guy who doesn't. It just makes me well informed. Also It makes me realize just how many hoops you have to jump through for no reason.
    Great view...congratulations...I wish more people with any kind of degree would view it like you...I have met many so-called genious coming from any university thinking they are god when it comes down to their field of degree...however, other than talking they could not do much...of course it depends on the individual, however, many of them thinks just because they studied they are better than others without any degree and this is what I don't like....never judge people based on their papers only...

    I do not have any kind of degree and I am proud of it...

    Keep up this great attitude...
    Last edited by Andreas Masur; December 17th, 2004 at 09:07 AM.
    Ciao, Andreas

    "Software is like sex, it's better when it's free." - Linus Torvalds


    Article(s): Allocators (STL) Function Objects (STL)

  11. #26
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    Re: Dev Article Discussion: What's the Difference Between a Hobbyist and a Profession

    Thanks Andreas,

    I have met many so-called genious coming from any university thinking they are god when it comes down to their field of degree...
    Those who can't *do* teach. Those who can't teach, teach gym.

    -Jack Black ( School of Rock )

    That is why a hobbiest is the best choice. Because they have learned how to actually *do*/accomplish before they go to work.

    ahoodin

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