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Thread: Life/Religion

  1. #91
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    Re: Life/Religion

    Well, it is a great scientific endeavour to understand the concept of God.
    after reading few translations of Gita & Vedas, the most ancient books of wisdom on earth & which are believed to have not been written by anyone but emerged on their own.. IMO they answer the things in the most scientific way...
    it will be a very very long discussion...to fully answer the queries..
    However, many latest discoveries in quantum physics are well postulated in vedas..and scientists do confirm that..
    God is not bound by the boundaries of time & dimensions of space, he exists everywhere at the same time...
    Vedas also provides answers to soul...nd much more..

    Regards,
    Ankush Mehta

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  2. #92
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    Re: Life/Religion

    I tend to miss the discussions in GD about God, life and religion. Let me try to answer in general, the questions that arise in this thread.

    The problem that happens when trying to find God is trying to find Him just for the sake of it. I believe that those who try to find Him honestly, he reveals himself to them. It is only logical to think that when He, a supreme being, reveals it will be in a unique way so that we are able to distinguish it. One such revelation is thru the nature. Just looking around you is enough to understand that there is a creator behind this marvelous work.

    A person by the name of S.K. Hine was in Russian jail and tortured for preaching the God he knows. Their condition for release was to denounce and tell that there is no God. He says when I consider the mighty things and the small things of the nature he believes that there is a God. In 1948 he wrote a song which is very popular that is has been translated to many languages(Including our local language). He writes…

    Oh Lord my God! When I in awesome wonder
    Consider all the works Thy hand hath made,
    I see the stars, I hear the mighty thunder,
    Thy power throughout the universe displayed

    Then sings my soul my Saviour God to Thee
    How great Thou art! How great Thou art!


    The song goes on to say when considering the woods, the forest, the sweet singing birds, the lofty mountain the brooks and the gentle breeze…he refrain but say how great God is. I do not know if he was released (much) later or if he was a martyr.

    When observing and keenly studying the nature, one cannot help but wonder there is in-fact a great creator behind this. This may explain why majority of the scientists are believers of God.(One study shows about 70%). Recently our president, Dr. A. P. J. Abdul Kalam, a scientist who contributed so much to the Indian defense system, visited some of the children (he is very popular among the students) one of them asked if he believe there is God. His reply was, when I see the sun, moon and the stars I believe there is a creator. Since the creation is so unique, yes it is his revelation.

    Second is thru is his word, which is the Bible. Bible is so unique that there is no literature at par with the Bible. This is a very much accepted fact by the people against the Bible. Cherish has posted some interesting facts of the bible. There are many astonishing discoveries and amazing facts and phenomena of the bible, that those who are against say all is by mere chance. The so called chance theory is the major weapon by atheist and anti-Bible people that if you show them a watch and tell that this was made by chance, they should believe it. Based on their theory I can comfortably say that Mona Lisa artwork wasn’t created, but Da Vinci just took some paint put in on a paper shook it a voila!

    An example from the Bible is: those who have at least read the Bible once know that 7 is the number of God. 7 days of creation, 7 Churchs, 7 seals, 7 stars, 7 lampstands etc. When God says “I have made the earth, and created man upon it” Isaiah 42:12 or “I have made the earth, the man and the beast that are upon the ground, by my great power and by my outstretched arm, and have given it unto whom it seemed meet unto me.” Jeremiah 27: 5 , do you believe that it is a mere chance that the time for a living thing to be formed is a multiple of 7? Do you go and look under the hen sitting on eggs to see the chicks on the 20 the day or on 22 nd day? Why exactly on 21 st? Who set the 21 days? Or is it a mere chance that 21 is 7*3? Why does you mother put ducks eggs exactly 7 days prior to putting of chicken eggs if the same hen is used for hatching? Who set the day for ducks as 28? Is it by chance that 28 is 7*4? Or again is it by chance that women ovulates every 28 (7*4) days or the time from conception to the birth of a baby is 266 (7*38)days? Go on and search and you can find it for yourself for different species, you can find that such phenomenon is repeated. Any believer of the Bible can tell that it is God’s seal upon His creation.

    Another example of the phenomenon is the first verse of the Bible.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gen 1:1
    In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth
    . Is it just a coincidence that this verse(in original hebrew text), when tells about the creation, has just 7 words or just 28 (7*4) letters. Or there are three nouns in this sentence and their numeric equivalent (In Hebrew and Greek numbers and alphabets have the same letters) is 777 (7*111). There are many more such phenomena in this single sentence. There are numerous other such phenomena occurring in different parts of the Bible, that it is impossible for man to make such a book. And this phenomenon is so interlinked between books that it is impossible for some one without the knowledge of the other write one, well without divine inspiration. It is Dr. Ivan Panin who pioneered the work of discovering such phenomenon in the Bible. These and later discoveries that followed strongly emphasize the fact that Bible is indeed written by a divine person, more than human. The Nobel Research Foundations of USA has investigated his work and this is what they had to say
    So far as our investigation has proceeded, we find the evidence overwhelmingly in favor of such a statement.
    . These are all established facts that you can find it in the net. One such link is THE SEAL OF GOD IN CREATION AND THE WORD

    Third kind of revelation is direct divine revelation which happens only in extra ordinary circumstance or extra ordinary calling where Gospel cannot be reached in normal circumstance. One such revelation is the conversion of Apostle Paul, which is mentioned in the book of Acts. Of few such revelation I know is of a Pakistan woman Gulshan Fatima, who I think now lives in UK and another Indian Sadhu Sundar Singh, who was known as the Apostle of Asia. Lot has written about them that you can again verify the facts.

    The so called inconsistencies of the Bible are the problem with not looking into the Bible properly. Most of the inconsistency claimers have not properly read the Bible. Many quotes are taken out of context or are asked illogical questions to ascertain the claim that Bible is inconsistent. Now I am a Bible reader and study it, though not regularly. I come across what it seems to be inconsistencies…rather than proclaiming that Bible is inconsistent I seek or clarify with others who study the Bible. Some inconsistencies arise from the mistranslation, which shows we men are imperfect and as someone already pointed out prone to error. I would be interested to know if Sid’s friends have done the same. It doesn’t surprise me if those inconsistencies are pointed out by so called Christians, because most of those who don’t believe in the Bible are Christians themselves…some thing that is found out only in the Christian religion.

    Another mistake made by atheists is thinking that, if God is present is within our own understanding and in our own sphere of thinking. A very common question which is repeated by cilu is “Can your God make an immovable rock?.” If he can do anything, he can make a immovable rock. If he is almighty he can move an immovable rock as well. Seems like a well laid trap. But the askers of the question forget the fact that he is not only almighty, He is also all-wise. There are in-fact many things that he won’t /can’t do. Because such acts doesn’t go according to his wisdom and the laws he puts/follows. God cannot break his own law ( ie sin ). He doesn’t do anything foolish. Mind you, foolish thing in his sight might be a good/cleaver thing in our sight and vise-versa, because we cannot comprehend his wisdom. Look and study the bible, you can see there are may rules that he follows. One of the most important law is, the “wages of sin is death”. Romans 6:23 . And because “all have sinned” Romans 3:23 all are just for death (or hell). The message of the Bible is, there is salvation, and that salvation is thru the death of Jesus Christ(and he rose again on the third day). Since God has punished the sins of mankind on Jesus, those who believe in him will be saved. John 1:12 , John 3:16 , 1 John 1:9

    I’ve recently read a book written by an atheist himself…More Than A Carpenter. It is available in many languages, will be a good read. And any one who is interested in studying the Bible you can send your address to info@preciousseed.org to get a quarterly published magazine that helps you study the Bible. Printed in UK and USA, you can get it free. Also answers a number of questions that is been asked in the daily life (including many that have been posted here.) You can also read discussion in other two threads in this forum. God and religion, Creation of Univese
    Bible is for those who diligently seek God and His ways. Such people have been drawn to the Bible thru the love of God. Such people are from different background and different religion, including Christianity. And such people stand for the Truth no matter what, because they have known and experienced the Truth in their life. In the moments of history they were persecuted for their faith. [quote = Hebrews 11:36-40] Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and of chains and imprisonment.
    37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two, were tempted, were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented——
    38 of whom the world was not worthy. They wandered in deserts and mountains, in dens and caves of the earth.
    39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise,
    40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.[/quote] With them I also join them in saying
    Quote Originally Posted by Romans 8:35
    Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
    Yes there is life after death. The question is what you have done about it. You can either turn to where you get the free salvation by faith, or you can go on discrediting the Bible falling upon illogical and faulty theories, be it of evolution, Big-bang or the carbon-14.
    Even if our suggestions didn't help, please post the answer once you find it. We took the effort to help you, please return it to others.

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  3. #93
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    Re: Life/Religion

    Quote Originally Posted by mathew
    A very common question which is repeated by cilu is “Can your God make an immovable rock?.”
    Aha, feels like I'm turned into the bad guy.

    Quote Originally Posted by mathew
    If he can do anything, he can make a immovable rock. If he is almighty he can move an immovable rock as well. Seems like a well laid trap. But the askers of the question forget the fact that he is not only almighty, He is also all-wise. There are in-fact many things that he won’t /can’t do. Because such acts doesn’t go according to his wisdom and the laws he puts/follows. God cannot break his own law ( ie sin ). He doesn’t do anything foolish. Mind you, foolish thing in his sight might be a good/cleaver thing in our sight and vise-versa, because we cannot comprehend his wisdom. Look and study the bible, you can see there are may rules that he follows.
    Well, Mathew, that was a wonderful answer, arround the question. That's like asking "Can Mathew eat a pound of ice cream that he made?" And the answer is, "Mathew would not do that because it's against his principle, that ice cream is bad for the health".

    Quote Originally Posted by mathew
    Another mistake made by atheists is thinking that, if God is present is within our own understanding and in our own sphere of thinking.
    I always despised the general view that we can not understand God. Priests intoxicate us with that, because is the easies way to answer hard questions, for what they don't have answers. Why is it that hard to understand God? I do believe that if God existed, we could understand him. Bible says he made us in his image and likeness. That means we are like him. To me that also implies understanding, wisdom, and many other characterstics. I simply deny this idea of God's incomprehensibility.

    I believe that if God existed he would wanted us to think for ourselves rather to accept other people truths, to ask the right questions and debate the answers rather than accepting them blindly. Obviously, people that did that were always considered heretics and many times burnt alive, but in the end, the truth always prevails (in 4 cases out of 7 as Murphy observed ).

    BTW, does the resurection of this thread has anything to do with the release of The Da Vinci Code movie?
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  4. #94
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    Re: Life/Religion

    Those who are obsessed with the worship of God often run the risk of forgetting the importance of being a good human being. You can compare this world to a class room. There are guys who spent their time "apple polishing" and there are guys who study but ignore the teacher most of the time.

    People who are either atheists or belong to the "haven't really thought about it" category often have more humanity, compassion and charity than the religious ones.

    A dumb teacher likes the apple polishers and a good one likes the guys who study. If you think mere apple polishing will please Him, you are insulting His intelligence.

  5. #95
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    Re: Life/Religion

    One more thing. Apple polishing is easy, studying isn't.

  6. #96
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    Re: Life/Religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Sahir
    People who are either atheists or belong to the "haven't really thought about it" category often have more humanity, compassion and charity than the religious ones.

    A person who claims himself to be an atheist & does the good work is in fact following the path of righteousness shown by god & he finds favour with god owing to his karma(Actions).God doesn't need us for his appreciation..
    Last edited by erankushmehta; May 29th, 2006 at 12:44 AM.

    Regards,
    Ankush Mehta

    "The Child is the father of the Man."
    William Wordsworth

  7. #97
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    Re: Life/Religion

    Quote Originally Posted by cilu
    That's like asking "Can Mathew eat a pound of ice cream that he made?" And the answer is, "Mathew would not do that because it's against his principle, that ice cream is bad for the health".
    This is a logically correct question which can be followed by a logically correct answer. To my understanding your question follows this logic. Mathew is a human. Humans can eat ice-cream(in different quantities). Humans can make ice-cream. All, known and agreeable parameters. Since “Can” shows possibilities, the answer could be “Mathew cannot because Mathew will throw up if he eats ice cream more than half a pound”. But the answer you provided deals with probability rather than possibility. So I can conclude that your answer is wrong, or it does not follow a logical conclusion.

    Contrary to that your question (or the question that I quoted) is, “Can God make an immovable rock?” This cannot be answered satisfactorily to both sides because, when asking such a question atheist substitute God with almighty(for arguments sake), which in the explanation we put God as almighty as well as wise, which is what my answer is. Can a wise God do foolish thing? No. Why, because he is wise and that is one of the characters that define God. God is holy so He cannot do an unholy thing. Again this is what my previous answer is. Apart from that, this kind of questions serves no purpose other than trapping an unsuspected believer.
    Quote Originally Posted by cilu
    I always despised the general view that we can not understand God.
    Even I despise. Again what I said it, it is a mistake thinking that God is present within our understanding. Again let me be clear, we cannot fully understand God because human and God are in different plane. He is almighty, we are not, He is al-wise, we are not, he is omnipresent and we are not either. As an example, a blind cannot fully appreciate the nature unless and until he can see. We cannot make the blind understand it fully, because we have something extra that he doesn’t have.
    Quote Originally Posted by cilu
    Bible says he made us in his image and likeness. That means we are like him. To me that also implies understanding, wisdom, and many other characterstics.
    Your implication is quite right. To reason, to make choice etc are only with humans. Which is why I tried to reason with you about God, rather than asking you (or anyone reading this) to believe Him blindly. Also note that nowhere in the Bible says we are equal to God. So we are way inferior to Him. Another reason why the stress about image and likeness is, in previous verses it says, God created each of the species of animals after its own kind, but when it came to man, He didn’t make him after animal, but God’s own kind or in God’s image.
    Quote Originally Posted by cilu
    Priests intoxicate us with that, because is the easies way to answer hard questions, for what they don't have answers.
    You are quite right. When I engage with such talk with Christians, I ask them not to listen to the priests. Rather go back to the Bible, where many of the answers are. But think again. Atheists are the ones who try to believe blindly that there is no God. For leaders, that means there is no authority above them so they are the supreme people; the fundamentals of communism and Marxism. To escape the idea of living responsibly, they invent that God is a myth. People are brain washed to believe that. No choice is given. Since Bible gave fundamental answers, Bibles where destroyed, as well as Christians. But you are again right. Truth prevailed in the end. Christianity began to flourish under persecution. Examine the history, whenever Christians are persecuted, there a tremendous growth was seen. Some time ago I happened to read in the papers, the same opinion from a Marxist.
    Quote Originally Posted by sahir
    Those who are obsessed with the worship of God often run the risk of forgetting the importance of being a good human being. You can compare this world to a class room. There are guys who spent their time "apple polishing" and there are guys who study but ignore the teacher most of the time.

    People who are either atheists or belong to the "haven't really thought about it" category often have more humanity, compassion and charity than the religious ones.
    To turn to God also means to live responsibly. Since God is holy, the followers of God do things that please Him. Since God is love, his followers also do things in love. Since God is kind, compassionate and slow to anger, his followers are also the same. Take a look into history. The world’s cruelest people and leaders were atheists. Because atheists’ only authority to whom he is subject is the law of the land, why should he be humane or kind or compassionate? The law doesn’t state that. And since you die any way why suffer for that? Look into history again. The most kind and compassionate people were those who stood for God. They went to lawless lands, tried to improve society, built schools and hospitals and at times had to face mockers and mobs because they taught them how to love each other.

    Atheism works by taking out choices and by building a framework around them. They attract people by how the framework works, without showing any alternatives. My point in answering (or rather trying to answer) the posts is, to be honest (take out the framework) and be willing to investigate (look into the choices). Atheists have become God fearing people by doing that. By being honest you too can find God.
    Even if our suggestions didn't help, please post the answer once you find it. We took the effort to help you, please return it to others.

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  8. #98
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    Re: Life/Religion

    My definition or better say understanding of God is different. It is open to change the day I get some different experience relevant enough to redefine it. It is just a personal opinion - not based on any book or any philosopher (if it has been said earlier? I wouldn't know!)

    "God to me is the best thought that can ever originate out of a human mind."

    It is that perfection that we always wish to achieve - that will make the life of living beings as wonderful as possible. But we are still far off it. People always try to negate this fact by using logic, by using the argument of scientific thinking. What is science? It is just a cobweb of thoughts that convince our brains to base our beliefs on.. Who knows which theory lasts how long? 100 years? 1000 years? The theory of gravitation has changed, the Newton's laws have been refined, many more theories have been thrown into dustbins just because they weren't actually that successful in justifying our observations as the later ones were. But still the belief in God has stayed.. it has prevailed.

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    Re: Life/Religion

    Quote Originally Posted by mathew
    This is a logically correct question which can be followed by a logically correct answer. To my understanding your question follows this logic. Mathew is a human. Humans can eat ice-cream(in different quantities). Humans can make ice-cream. All, known and agreeable parameters. Since “Can” shows possibilities, the answer could be “Mathew cannot because Mathew will throw up if he eats ice cream more than half a pound”. But the answer you provided deals with probability rather than possibility. So I can conclude that your answer is wrong, or it does not follow a logical conclusion.

    Contrary to that your question (or the question that I quoted) is, “Can God make an immovable rock?” This cannot be answered satisfactorily to both sides because, when asking such a question atheist substitute God with almighty(for arguments sake), which in the explanation we put God as almighty as well as wise, which is what my answer is. Can a wise God do foolish thing? No. Why, because he is wise and that is one of the characters that define God. God is holy so He cannot do an unholy thing. Again this is what my previous answer is. Apart from that, this kind of questions serves no purpose other than trapping an unsuspected believer.
    I see you're playing smart. You brought into scene the willingness of God (or someone for that matter) to do something. The question "can God make a rock so heavy that he cannot lift it" refers solely to his power, because he is considered omni-powerfull. It doesn't have to do with his will.

    Quote Originally Posted by mathew
    Even I despise. Again what I said it, it is a mistake thinking that God is present within our understanding. Again let me be clear, we cannot fully understand God because human and God are in different plane. He is almighty, we are not, He is al-wise, we are not, he is omnipresent and we are not either. As an example, a blind cannot fully appreciate the nature unless and until he can see. We cannot make the blind understand it fully, because we have something extra that he doesn’t have.
    You make a good point here. But for me personally it doesn't matter. I don't believe, based on what's written in the Bible itself, that God of the Bible is omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient. So, to me, that advantage goes away.

    Quote Originally Posted by mathew
    But you are again right. Truth prevailed in the end. Christianity began to flourish under persecution. Examine the history, whenever Christians are persecuted, there a tremendous growth was seen.
    Yes, you are right. And that happens because people don't like to be told what to do. But the paradox is that the Christian faith and values suffers the most in times of freedom, when people can do whatever the like, when they are free to believe and express the way they want.

    Quote Originally Posted by mathew
    Take a look into history. The world’s cruelest people and leaders were atheists.
    Though I cannot forget the Great Inquisition, a tool of the Catholic Church that killed millions over the centuries for believing other things than the Pope.
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    Re: Life/Religion

    Nice topic....how did I missed it.

    God...for me it is just a concept created by mankind and later chnaged as per the situations. It is very very old belief spread by our ancestors.
    I feel for today God is representative word of all good things, good things = things considered good by majority of human society.

    Life after death: no....live is a concept between birth and death. But yes there must be something happening to our Identity after death.
    I think we are just a complex form of energy, and it is highly possible that we are converted to some other form after by death and birth..so it's likely that we keep coming again and again. The interesting question in this series would be....why ? and what is purpose of life ?
    Why all these species... ?? whats the real cause of start of evolution..
    Regards,
    Ramkrishna Pawar

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    Re: Life/Religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Krishnaa
    whats the real cause of start of evolution..
    The earth's ecosystem - that could breed life!
    Last edited by exterminator; May 30th, 2006 at 03:12 AM.

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    Re: Life/Religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathew Joy
    The most kind and compassionate people were those who stood for God. They went to lawless lands, tried to improve society, built schools and hospitals and at times had to face mockers and mobs because they taught them how to love each other.
    I will not dispute that. They were all exceptional people. I am not speaking for or against theism. Just a general observation from the world around me. Peace

    Quote Originally Posted by Cilu
    Can God make an immovable rock?
    It is a law of logic that an omnipotent being cannot create an immovable object. God is also that law of logic and it's creator. God cannot create an immovable object or self destruct because the law says so. But the diety is the law and the law is the diety. So, the diety's omnipotence cannot be disputed using this argument.
    Last edited by Sahir; May 30th, 2006 at 04:18 AM.

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    Re: Life/Religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Sahir
    It is a law of logic that an omnipotent being cannot create an immovable object.
    Really? I never heard of that law of logic before. I didn't know logic and God are tied together.
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  14. #104
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    Re: Life/Religion

    Quote Originally Posted by cilu
    Really? I never heard of that law of logic before. I didn't know logic and God are tied together.
    An omnipotent being creating an object to defeat itself is called a contradiction in logic. Aristotle's law of noncontradiction states : "One cannot say of something that it is and that it is not in the same respect and at the same time."

    Quote Originally Posted by cilu
    I didn't know logic and God are tied together.
    Heard of the Barber who is required to shave anyone who does not shave himself ? If barbers can be tied to logic why not God ?

  15. #105
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    Re: Life/Religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Sahir
    Heard of the barber who is required to shave anyone who does not shave himself ? If barbers can be tied to logic why not God ?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barber_paradox

    Here is a link in case any one is wondering if that was an instance of meaningless randomness
    Last edited by Sahir; May 30th, 2006 at 02:33 PM.

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