A question to all programmers

[Roosta]

Hey,

I just have a few questions I would like to ask. I’m just about to turn 18 and as all do chose my career path. At the moment I’m tossing up between a few things but ever since I got into designing and building websites the more and more I have started to take an interest in programming. I’ve been creating websites for a good 6 months now and am quite handy with HTML and CSS but would really like to get into programming. Anyway moving on the point of my questions is to differentiae as to whether programming is something I want to chase as a career or just a hobby so if you could answer my questions it would be much appreciated.

1) For those who have worked as a full time programmer how hard is it to find permanent work and what is the pay like on average?

2) I have always wanted to create a game, mainly a simulator. What kinds of programming would I have to study to be able to do something like this?

3) If I were to take programming up as a hobby is it something that I could teach myself through books and tutorials?

Even if you just answer one of these questions it would be of great help to me, thanks in advance.

[TheCPUWizard]

1) Finding work depends heavily on location and experience. The pay rate also varies greatly. TOP pay rates in locations such as New York City can exceed $100 (US) per hour...

2) Gaming is an art unto itself. Aside from programming skils, there are many other requirements. IT has been my experience that beginners who try to jump right into games ge very fustrated (not realizing that commercial games take many man years of development by highly skilled teams).

3) From a hobbist perspective, you can definately teach your self. Just start with the basics and make sure you understand each point 100% before moving on. Manually type in and single step with a debugger through EVERY line of code that is in your book.

So welcome to the community, and good luck.

[goatslayer]

1. It can be hard to get that first job, but for those that want commercial experience, if you don't have it, make sure you are enthusiastic and know what you are talking about. Make sure you have your own practical experience programming which you can draw on. Many interviews will ask you to write a sample app or find problems in code - being able to do this quickly and well will help. Originality in this case is also a bonus.


2. C++, Open-GL, Physics (close to the ultimate combination). It is not easy, but if you try producing simulations of gravity and stuff then you are on the right road. Don't forget basics though, you can produce games with 2D graphics, or no graphics at all. Be original, and keep coming up with ideas for games. Also, do not shun re-programming old-games, this is all great experience for making bigger and better games in future.


3. I agree with TheCPUWizard. Understand every input and output to functions, and take care to know what you have done in a tutorial before moving onto the next. Somtimes multiple tutorials teaching the same thing will help. Get a good basic book, you know a C++ step by step, combine it with a known book like the C++ Primer, and introduce any tutorials that you return through google from places like codeguru and other hobbyists. Initially it can be slow or uninteresting, but anyone with an interest in computing and programming long-term will always keep in mind their eventual goals. If you can set yourself a goal to try and achieve in the beginning like a very simple application, and program that step by step as you learn something new, then that helps.

[Roosta]

Thank you TheCPUWizard & goatslayer for your replies you were very helpful.

Just some more questions;

1) I'm all new to this so how many different languages are essential to programming. Like when I was building websites I learnt the two essential languages which where HTML and CSS so what is the equivalent to these in programming?

2) For my first project where would be the best place to start assuming I'm learning C++, I've always wanted to create a program where I can store statistics get averages, frequencies etc. Would this be hard?

3) Are there languages out there that get the same result. What I mean by that is two different languages that eventually would just give you the same result if so what are they?

Thanks in advance

[Roosta]

Anyone?

[GremlinSA]

well these questions are a little harder to answer as alot of it depends on personal preferance..

1 + 2)The 'C' guys will say C++ or C#, The VB guys wil Say VB.NET, ( some will even say VB6).. and the rest will call apon there own personal preffered lang...

2) depending on you knowlegde this should not be that difficult..

3) YES.. Most of with will return simmular (Never the Same) result. And i'm not talking about the Averages and frequency's, these should return identicle.. I'm talking about look, feel and speed of the application.. I may get some slack for this!! It's generaly accepted that C is slightly faster with complex calculations, but VB has a better look/feel to it.

Alot of this is now on par with the .NET framework, but each still has it's own small advantage...

Gremmy...

[Alsvha]

<snip>
1) I'm all new to this so how many different languages are essential to programming. Like when I was building websites I learnt the two essential languages which where HTML and CSS so what is the equivalent to these in programming?<snip>

Depends on the job you want and what the companies you apply at are interested in.
Many will treat programming language as something religious like "X is better then Y" and "Z will do best".

Fact of the matter is that it doesn't matter much which language you learn first because if you learn to grasp the more abstract concepts of programming (whether it be object orientated programming or not), it is relative easy to shift between languages and pick up new ones.
My programming teacher always said the first language was the most difficult and the next one was always easier. So far I tend to agree with him.

Willingness to learn, showing abilities, being able to handle concepts and problems, and come up with solutions to them and so on, is in my view and experience much more important then just "knowing" the syntax of a language. Also because syntax changes over time (.NET for example is changing fast constantly with syntax changes, new techniques and additions to the framework) so you can rarely get by without keeping up to date any way. And then it matters little if you expand within the same language or pick up a new one. Syntax is easy, how to handle problems effectively: a bit more difficult.

Of course if you apply for a job as a senior Java programmer, you better know the Java language. Hence why it again leads back to which type of companies you are interested in and which kind of work.

My advice is to sit down and think hard about which type of projects you are likely to apply for, which type of companies. Then do some investigation and find out which type of languages these companies use, how their process is etc, and then take it from there.

[TheCPUWizard]

Alsvha,

A good post. Understanding the concepts is key (above rote memorization of a given language). However it is also importtant to know the details of a specific language, and why there are "good" and "Bad" ways to accomplist a specific goal.

An algorithm or design pattern implementation that is great in C++ may be servely lacking when implemented in C# (or the other ay around).

I fail about 1/3 of job cantidates because they use techniques on the qualfying exam that are properly suited to a different langauge /environment. EVEN thought they WILL work 100%.

By the way...
"Y is diffenitaly better than X" (not the other way around as you originally posted.

[Alsvha]

Alsvha,

A good post. Understanding the concepts is key (above rote memorization of a given language). However it is also importtant to know the details of a specific language, and why there are "good" and "Bad" ways to accomplist a specific goal.

An algorithm or design pattern implementation that is great in C++ may be servely lacking when implemented in C# (or the other ay around).

I fail about 1/3 of job cantidates because they use techniques on the qualfying exam that are properly suited to a different langauge /environment. EVEN thought they WILL work 100%.

By the way...
"Y is diffenitaly better than X" (not the other way around as you originally posted.

Hence why it is important to "know" what you apply for - meaning the company, position and field of industry.
It is silly to show up at a web-development company trying to talk about in debt assembler code and show up at an medical equipment development company and talk about style sheets and web development techniques
Unless the company isn't searching for specific language of course, but looking for people they can educate themselves.

However, with the speed tools and languages/framework can evolve today, the fundamentals are way more important then actual language specific syntax in my opinion.
A candidate who show understanding of the key elements and problem solving skill, but perhaps not the correct syntax is in my opinion vastly superior to a candidate who know the syntax, but can't solve problems.

Of course the perfect candidate is the "all of the above" candidate, but for newcomers to the industry it is impossible to be "all of the above".

And personally - I got my current programmer job where we develop in vb.net without having ever written any vb code other then a tad vbscript and a tad vba.


And no - X is always better then Y dangnabbit.

[Roosta]

Any recommendations on a book I should buy to understand the concepts?

Obviously the best option would be attending a class but seeing as I'm currently in my last year at school i wont be able to do that until next year so any book or site recommendations would be helpful.

[TheCPUWizard]

... show up at an medical equipment development company and talk about style sheets...

Hey they put sheets on lots of medical equipment (to isolate the patient from the cold metal), no reason they shouldn'y have style.

... However, with the speed tools and languages/framework can evolve today, the fundamentals are way more important then actual language specific syntax in my opinion.

This really gets hard to separate. Consider the differences caused by a garbage collected environment. Without GC, it may be better to hold a reference to an object you will need later, but in a GC environment, it may be more cost effective to do double object creation.

ps: This is actually the basis for one of my Sr. Developer Interview Subjects.

[Roosta]

So I have decided I will learn C++ as my first language but would obviously like to learn the concepts first so where should I start. I have absolutely no experience at all so I'm looking for a place to start.

[Alsvha]

<snip>
This really gets hard to separate. Consider the differences caused by a garbage collected environment. Without GC, it may be better to hold a reference to an object you will need later, but in a GC environment, it may be more cost effective to do double object creation.
<snip>

Neither of which is language syntax specific but garbage collection specific - thus more "conceptual".
If you know and understand the concepts of GC versus non-GC, then how the syntax to "deconstruct" your objects looks/writes is less important, because syntax is always only a reference book away anyway.
And whether it is more expensive to GC and re-create an object, or carry over an object is situational anyway, that it is (IMO) better that you know how to figure out technique to use rather then just how you create/finalize the objects with little outside understanding.

But yes, it quickly becomes blurry when going for "senior" positions, but I still maintain that a reference book combined with understanding of the concepts is superior to knowing the syntax with little understanding of the hows and whys.

But as said - the first price is getting "all the above" in one package of course.

[Alsvha]

So I have decided I will learn C++ as my first language but would obviously like to learn the concepts first so where should I start. I have absolutely no experience at all so I'm looking for a place to start.

Unfortunately I can not provide you with references as such, because I never did much C++ myself other then once I picked up a "learn C++ in 21 days" but never got past day 3 'cause I had other things to read instead.
Mostly I read specialized books now a days and rarely generalized ones, and suggesting SQL Server books will only get you so far

However experience is the best teacher, so of course you need to learn the syntax to do anything with a language. Start there, follow some books and examples, and try to understand what the code lines actually does.
Dig deeper, constantly.

Based on where within the field of programming your interests lies I would advice you to pick up some books on system development and architecture.
Understanding the Object Orientated conceptual world is good if you want to be an OO programmer. Knowing something about design patterns will also help you along.
However those things can be awful dry (I think so myself and I hate(d) reading them) - so don't sweat it too much if you fail to understand them to begin with. Once you gain experience with solving problems, you'll start to see the pieces fit better together, and you'll learn to "think outside the box" which IMO is a very important as well.

So I'm sorry I can't be more concrete and say "read book A, B or C", but only give you (most likely) useless advice

[asantavicca]

So I have decided I will learn C++ as my first language but would obviously like to learn the concepts first so where should I start. I have absolutely no experience at all so I'm looking for a place to start.

Well, there are a couple of things you'll need to do. C++ is a good language to start with (in my opinion) because much syntax in other languages is taken from this one. The only down side is that it's not the best language for doing web programming (which is what you sound interested in). That being said, I still think C++ is a great place to start.

First you'll need a C++ development environment. From what I understand, you can get Microsoft Visual C++ Express for free? Maybe? That might be a good place to start.

Second, you asked for a good book. I learned from Deitel and Deitel (Google for their stuff). I found them to be fairly helpful. You might consider going to a local library and renting out a book or two to see if you like any of them.

There are also a lot of pretty good tutorials online. That would also be an OK place to start. The nice thing about a book, however, is that it tends to be a better reference tool and covers concepts in more detail.

That's my 0.02