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View Poll Results: Why VB 6.0

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  • My employer/school requires it - and provides a valid licensed copy

    7 28.00%
  • My employer/school requires it - I dont know if I am legal

    2 8.00%
  • Been using if for years legally and see not reason to upgrade to (free) new version

    13 52.00%
  • Got a copy of it from somewhere..

    4 16.00%
  • I didn't know any better

    1 4.00%
  • I am a caveman...

    7 28.00%
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Thread: Why VB 6.0??

  1. #151
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    Re: Why VB 6.0??

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCPUWizard
    A top notch developer (New York City, USA) can command a salary of $150K-$225K easily....

    But I dont think there is anyone who can do anything in 3.32 microseconds....
    I can and at those rates, I'm moving to NY tomorrow.

  2. #152
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    Re: Why VB 6.0??

    Quote Originally Posted by javajawa
    Am I the only person who misses the time when people wrote programs to be as small and simple as possible? Or is it because I'm the only person in the world who still owns two computers which can only run win98?
    By the number of people Quoting this, I'd have to say no...

    I'm also a firm beliver in making software run on a minimum spec system.
    Although there are some projects, that have so many requirments, that simply will not run on a min spec system.

    Long gone are the days of the 64K micro computer, that everything HAD to run in ~50k at 10khz. there was no option of faster proccessor, More ram, Acellerated Graphics, etc..

    My biggest complaint about alot of today's applications, it that the min spec for each version is often more than is available on the entry level systems for sale..

    It sometimes feels like the software developers and hardware manufacturers are working in kahoots... forcing the end user to upgrade the hardware in order to use the software.. (this i feel is almost true when it comes to games..)
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  3. #153
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    Re: Why VB 6.0??

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCPUWizard
    If you have been reading my posts you know I have be at this since 1972, and also that I own a (lamost) restored 1968 DEC PDP-8. The equipement I own cost over $150K when purchased new.

    Size and Speed have always been about cost (and I have posted on this at length). If you have a professional developer making $25K / yr (very good money in the early 1970's), and a 4K memory upgrade costs $15K. Then investing a few months of work to save $15K (per machine!) is a no brainer.

    But look at today. A top notch developer (New York City, USA) can command a salary of $150K-$225K easily. And a 4GB memory stick costs under $100.

    Using these figures, in 1972 byte of saved memory ($2.44) was worth. about 12 minutes of development time. Today, that same byte of memory is worth 3.32 microseconds of development time.

    I dont know about you, but in the oldr programs, I could usually find 5 bytes in an hour of examination of a normally written program within and hour. But I dont think there is anyone who can do anything in 3.32 microseconds....
    Hahaha ..
    here is something to think about, it can take a developer 3.32 microseconds to add 4 bytes to the application. It's that split second that the developer thinks about his variable declarations..

    I debugged a Dll recently where the original developer used Int64 for all the integer variables, even in places where the max posible value was going to be 64 (bit manipulations)..

    Now there may be a memory savings by using a byte for it, however i've read a few articles that have made it clear that using Int32 is more cost effective on a 32 bit proccessor, than using a byte..

    I spent a few hours replacing the Int64's with the smaller footprint Int32's, and acctually reduced the compiled Dll by a few K, and reduced it's memory footprint considrably, and at the end reducd the execution time to about 75% of original..

    During the original development, take the 3.32ms to decide if you REALY need to use Int64 or will Int32 work here...

    I'm now in the habbit of only using Int64 and Byte when it's physically nessasary, like in a UDT that is used for data transfer or file formating..

    Wait until 64Bit systems are the norm and we now have the added Int128 type....
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  4. #154
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    Re: Why VB 6.0??

    Quote Originally Posted by GremlinSA
    Hahaha ..
    here is something to think about, it can take a developer 3.32 microseconds to add 4 bytes to the application. It's that split second that the developer thinks about his variable declarations..
    ...snip...
    I'm now in the habbit of only using Int64 and Byte when it's physically nessasary, like in a UDT that is used for data transfer or file formating..

    Wait until 64Bit systems are the norm and we now have the added Int128 type....
    Actually 64 bit systems are the "norm" for systems that are currently shipping from manufacturers. I know of very few who are still producing 32 bit systems.

    Regarding the software requirements vs. minimum hardware, there is some sanity to it. Lets assume it takes 1 year to get a program to market, and that the intended viable life (from a sales perspective) is 5 years.

    If the program is designed to run on what constitutes a "entry level" system when the design is first started, it is likely to put burdens on the developers that will actually not apply by the time the product ships. This results in lower profits.

    So the vendor starts to project (guess) what will be an entry level system in a year. Yet even these specifications may place a burden on the developers, so the intended target audience is looked at and it is determined that losing sales to people who one "entry level" new machines, or "older" machines (which may have once been "power" systems is acceptable to reduce the development cost.

    Some of these initially lost sales will be recovered later in the product cycle as the metrics for an "Entry Level" system increase.

    Finally, the vendor has to consider competition. If in 2-3 years (ie in the first two years they are shipping) another vendor makes a competitive product that requires the capabilities that are common at that point, will they be able to add features that will cause customers (potential and existing) to move to the competitors product.

    There are all part of what has to go into any responsible commercial software development effort. When processes like this are not done at the very start (conceptualization) of the project, and periodically reviewed and updated, it typically where projects fail. My experience has been that over 75% of all failed (commercial) projects result from non-programming issuessuch as this.
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  5. #155
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    Re: Why VB 6.0??

    Quote Originally Posted by GremlinSA
    I'm also a firm beliver in making software run on a minimum spec system.
    Although there are some projects, that have so many requirments, that simply will not run on a min spec system.
    ...
    My biggest complaint about alot of today's applications, it that the min spec for each version is often more than is available on the entry level systems for sale..

    It sometimes feels like the software developers and hardware manufacturers are working in kahoots... forcing the end user to upgrade the hardware in order to use the software.. (this i feel is almost true when it comes to games..)
    I agree with this. And it also seems as if no sooner than a faster processor becomes available, there's a slower, more bloated OS to go with it, resulting in little if no actual gain for the end user.

    This is partly why I always make sure my products will run properly on any win32 OS from win95 on up.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCPUWizard
    If the program is designed to run on what constitutes a "entry level" system when the design is first started, it is likely to put burdens on the developers that will actually not apply by the time the product ships. This results in lower profits.

    So the vendor starts to project (guess) what will be an entry level system in a year. Yet even these specifications may place a burden on the developers, so the intended target audience is looked at and it is determined that losing sales to people who one "entry level" new machines, or "older" machines (which may have once been "power" systems is acceptable to reduce the development cost.
    There are some win32 API functions not available on the earlier versions of windows, though I've yet to find it a burden to avoid using them. At some point I'm sure, but by then it will likely be much harder to find a system without them.

    One major pain for the developers of the windows OS itself is backward compatibility. For instance, Vista still has to support all the win32 API functions of a number of earlier versions of windows, and not screw it up. I wonder if this is one reason for the creation of .net. If developers can be lulled into not calling directly on the API, ms could conceivably stop exporting functions, making it necessary to use the objects in .net. Then the runtime handles the execution according to the OS it is running on. If this happens, the framework becomes the new "API", and nobody write software for windows without using .net. That is unless they take on the totally impractical task of writing around it all.

    The C++ developers would say VB wasn't true programming - that it made things too easy. They also didn't like the dependency on the runtime. Now many of them jump to .net, saying they like it because it's easy. And .net programs also require a runtime.

    Is there a point at which this all goes too far? I mean, somebody still has to write the OS...
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  6. #156
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    Re: Why VB 6.0??

    WizBang,

    A great post.

    Some comments...

    1) A "burden" can take many forms, from minimal to fatal. If you had to spend 5 minutes more coding to accomplish your goal, then that is a "burden" in that is incrementally raised your cost. Now if this happens a few thousnad time times over a five year life cycle....

    2) I have repeatedly posted that target markets differ. If your products are actually selling to Win95 customers, then more power to you. However I maintain that for business applications, supporting older platforms rapidly reaches quickly diminishing returns.

    3) More and more of the Windows components ARE using .NET. If you are running Win-2003, Vista, Win-2008 then it is basically impossible to use your machine without the .NET runtime executing.

    4) The requirement for a "runtime" is really an interesting set of tradeoffs. If it is an additional item the person must have, and it is large, then it becomes an issue. On the otherhand, if it is shipping already installed and is being transparently maintained by the vendor, it realy results in savings all around. In this scenario, the richer the framework, the smaller the individual applications....

    5) (Personal Prognostication....) While Win32 API will be around for a lonmg time, I predict two things.

    5a) More and more code will be programmed against a higher level (probably .NET for Windows machines)

    5b) Eventually the API will become an "inversion layer" which still supports the old interfaces, but is actually implemented in terms of the new framework.
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  7. #157
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    Re: Why VB 6.0??

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCPUWizard
    Actually 64 bit systems are the "norm" for systems that are currently shipping from manufacturers. I know of very few who are still producing 32 bit systems.
    Haha .. very true, however how many of these are shipping directly into the consumers home. I read/heard some where that 90% of the first 6 to 8 months of newly manufatured systems are shipped almost directly to developers.

    Now here we get to another interesting facet of the question of WHY VB 6..... How much of 64bit is already integrated into VB6 ??

    From my point of view .. 0 ... Zero .. Zip ... Nada ..

    VB6 is not 64 bit, and now never will be, the runtimes were all writen when 32bit was in full swing and 64bit was something still in pre development..

    And before anyone says , but the Pentium1 Proc was 64bit... NO it's not, It had a 64bit FSB and a few 64bit registers, however it only has a 32Bit primary register, and executed the 16 and 32Bit command set...

    Only in the last few years has TRUE 64Bit proccessors been developed with true 64bit Registers and 64Bit instruction set..

    Long after the last VB6 update was released..

    VB6 is 64bit Stupid, Hell you need a hack in your application to use 64bit integers.. (and again before anyone else say "No VB6 has 64bits"), It does have variable types that use 64bits, however they are scaled types, where you cannot use the true 64bit's and some of the bits are used to store scaling info, in reality they were only accurate upto about 48bits, and there after the scalling could cause loss of the lesser digits..

    Even Office Ultimate running on vista on a P4 calculates 2^64 as 18 446 744 073 709 600 000 , notice the loss of lesser digits, it's suposed to be 18 446 744 073 709 551 616....

    Gremmy....
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  8. #158
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    Re: Why VB 6.0??

    [QUOTE=GremlinSA]Haha .. very true, however how many of these are shipping directly into the consumers home. I read/heard some where that 90% of the first 6 to 8 months of newly manufatured systems are shipped almost directly to developers.
    [quote]
    Every Pentium Duo except the 2xxx series is 64 Bit. Also all of the AMD chips are. Asside from the super bargin basement (ie laptops under 400 dollars, desktops under 300), everything in the retail stores is 64bit, and has been for most of 2008.

    Now here we get to another interesting facet of the question of WHY VB 6..... How much of 64bit is already integrated into VB6 ??

    From my point of view .. 0 ... Zero .. Zip ... Nada ..

    VB6 is not 64 bit, and now never will be, the runtimes were all writen when 32bit was in full swing and 64bit was something still in pre development..

    And before anyone says , but the Pentium1 Proc was 64bit... NO it's not, It had a 64bit FSB and a few 64bit registers, however it only has a 32Bit primary register, and executed the 16 and 32Bit command set...

    Only in the last few years has TRUE 64Bit proccessors been developed with true 64bit Registers and 64Bit instruction set..

    Long after the last VB6 update was released..
    And this is a "good" reason FOR using VB6.0?
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  9. #159
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    Re: Why VB 6.0??

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCPUWizard
    Every Pentium Duo except the 2xxx series is 64 Bit. Also all of the AMD chips are. Asside from the super bargin basement (ie laptops under 400 dollars, desktops under 300), everything in the retail stores is 64bit, and has been for most of 2008.
    Okay i'll conceed this one... it's been a while since i've last browsed through the local PC warehouse, and checked what's on shelf..

    how ever to my defence, New systems can take upward of six months to actually get onto the shelf here in S.A., after the initial release in the States, Software is a lot sooner..
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  10. #160
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    Re: Why VB 6.0??

    Quote Originally Posted by GremlinSA
    how ever to my defence, New systems can take upward of six months to actually get onto the shelf here in S.A., after the initial release in the States, Software is a lot sooner..
    I conbfess to oft forgetting the internalional arena... But I am very interested in what machines are currently selling there at the "low end".

    I define "low end" as finding a baseline for the cheapest (new not refurbished) machines that you can find in a retail environment, then adding 20% to that. "Special Sale" prices typically should not be included.

    If you could PM me some of the spec (Proc,Mem,HD,Ghz), I would really appreciate it.
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  11. #161
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    Re: Why VB 6.0??

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCPUWizard
    More and more of the Windows components ARE using .NET. If you are running Win-2003, Vista, Win-2008 then it is basically impossible to use your machine without the .NET runtime executing.
    Wait...If .net was written to use windows components, then windows turns around and uses .net which then uses windows components...LOL I'm not entirely sure I'm reading it exactly as you intended. That is unless .net has it's own components which windows is taking advantage of. However, what sort of components are we talking about here? Applets, dialogs, controls? Somewhere along the line, it still has to get down to a low enough level to make things happen. Perhaps you're saying that the framework has the sort of capability offered by the windows API, accept instead of exported functions, the developer would access them using .net objects? I don't know...sounds like the arguments made against VB - that it isolates developers from the lowest level we have - the API.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCPUWizard
    The requirement for a "runtime" is really an interesting set of tradeoffs. If it is an additional item the person must have, and it is large, then it becomes an issue. On the otherhand, if it is shipping already installed and is being transparently maintained by the vendor, it realy results in savings all around. In this scenario, the richer the framework, the smaller the individual applications....
    Well, then since the VB runtime is relatively small, and it's pretty much guaranteed to already be on the system, then why hasn't it been viewed (by developers) as "just another system dll"? Should a VB app be treated any differently than one which uses commdlg.dll for example?

    The "richness" of the framework might also be viewed as the bloat
    But does it really result in a smaller file size for the app? Smaller enough to make it worthwhile? I suppose we'll find out with the upcoming examples.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCPUWizard
    5) (Personal Prognostication....) While Win32 API will be around for a lonmg time, I predict two things.

    5a) More and more code will be programmed against a higher level (probably .NET for Windows machines)

    5b) Eventually the API will become an "inversion layer" which still supports the old interfaces, but is actually implemented in terms of the new framework.
    I also see something similar coming, though I have my doubts about where the API is going. I guess we'll have to see if the API continues to expand in future versions of windows, or if new functions/features are only available in .net. Thing is, a higher level implementation just pushes the programmer, and the code being written, farther from the true place where the work of the program really occurs. I do not see how that can be faster. Sure, you can argue again that the average PC will be fast enough to make up for it. But still, faster hardware gains the most ground when the software doesn't put extra drag on it.
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  12. #162
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    Re: Why VB 6.0??

    Wizbang, (and others )

    1) Regarding theusage of .NET by the OS. public information is at best vague, and even contradictory. I am also bound by a number of different NDA's. So consider.

    1a) Force a complete removal of .NET from Server-2003, Vista, or Server-2008 and your machine will crash. The only (supported) way to restore functionallity is a re-install of Windows.

    1b) The Windows API is NOT the "lowest level available". You can write Kernal Mode drivers that directly talk to the hardware and expose nearly any API to what ever level.

    1c) Consider the Windows Shell (Explorer.exe). Can you think of a technical (capabilities, not memory or performance) why this could not be completely written in .NET???

    1d) Core components like SharPoint Services as well as higher levels (Speech Server, BizTalk, etc) are already primarily .NET based rather than native...

    2) The contract that was supposed to finish last week has lingered on. But I am working on the samples. I hope to have some publiclly available (low level) benchmarks posted (with source available) late tonight. Then others can write their best implementation of equivilant functionallity (so I am not accused of writing biased benchmarks). This will be followed by a series of "common" C# samples that are in fact really BAD along with proper C# implementations [I think we can all agree that there is little difference btween VB.NET and C#, and anyone will be free to translate them]. Again people will be encouraged to replicate the samples in their favorite environment and share the results.

    3) (Although I understand why), you keep coming back to "faster computers should mean faster programs". This differes from the bulk of actual uses (and where Microsoft has specifically stated their target audience is). The direction things are going is that "faster computers allow software to be more easily developed (ie Cheaper) and at the same speed as the older computers".
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    Re: Why VB 6.0??

    I heard of a few good points on why to use the .net and why not. For developers, it takes the hardness and burden from them learning how bad microsoft wrote their apis. I haven't got into linux to see how bad/easy their api list is, but it is unix like. I would only have to look at the kernel's apis because that is linux and not the xserver or the desktop envoriment which runs on the linux's kernel. I like using apis in both vb6 and c++. It gives me a solid understanding and helps me get more speed in vb6. People want to bash vb6 for not being 64-bit supported. I will tell you I don't even use any 64-bit apps or oses, unless it is linux, because there isn't enough support for 64-bit apps on windows. I don't want to run vista so that is another reason I don't use 64-bit apps.

    Here is a funny story, I bought an amd athlon 3200+ with 64-bit support when they sold for 218 dollars. It was one of the top processors at the time. I bought it to to be ready for 64-bit support. I thought 64-bit would be around the corner(few years). Well I was wrong and I never really used it for 64-bit apps, but it was a great processor. I still have that computer. Now I recently bought a q6600 for quad coring. Where is the support for that? It may just be around that corner too, but I doubt it since all my apps currently doesn't care to support all 4 processors yet.

    This can apply to using the .net. Businesses have the money to spend on computers. I just don't want to spend all my money like that. My power supply died because I was pulling too much power. I didn't buy one for months later. Why?? I just don't like spending money on things that shouldn't have failed. One of my 1 gb sticks of memory failed. It wasn't suppose to do that . The 2 gb wouldn't even work in a dual channel setup. The cas latency couldn't be dropped to the proper timings either.

    What I am saying that my money gets used up by buying technology that just isn't worth what is goes for. Also it was high speed memory. Not the cheap kind.

    The only thing right now in my computer that was worth the money I bought it for is my video card and my processor.

    The memory was not good. The power supply wasn't good.

    My q6600 and my ati radeon hd 2900 Pro video card lives on to surprise me.

    I will be getting new memory this month. I am sure my computer can run the .net, but I don't think everyone has such a newer computer. I built mine and that is why I got such a fast computer. If you go buy a dell........ you just spent your money on medium technology that the .net can't run on or you spent way too much money on something you could have built yourself for much cheaper.

    You might beable to rewrite explorer.exe, but you would have to scrap all the work they put in the exe since it uses alot of dlls and some classes for their controls I never heard of.

    They used alot of apis to create that. I wonder if .net has all the tools to overlay all the apis they used to make it??

    Try opening the exe in a hex editor and go down to where the functions names they import and read all the required apis and get back to me.

    Actually I did one better. I done it myself. So now you can answer my question

    HTML Code:
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          [ O 8RSDS ִ|Gi,   explore
    Sorry for all the funny markings. I pulled that straight out of exe file make sure to scroll all the way to the right

    Also if you do compare vb6 and c# speed, you have to follow each language specifications. That means vb6 supports the use of apis and c# doesn't. Get over it. User in vb6 should have the right to use the apis in speed comparision because vb6 has the support needed to do that while c# may have the ability, that isn't how c# should be used since c# is suppose to have equivalent tools. If it doesn't, oh well.
    Last edited by Joeman; July 8th, 2008 at 11:30 PM.
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  14. #164
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Fox Lake, IL
    Posts
    15,007

    Re: Why VB 6.0??

    Ever hear of un-managed code? VB.Net as well as C# both support it, and can both support API's
    David

    CodeGuru Article: Bound Controls are Evil-VB6
    2013 Samples: MS CODE Samples

    CodeGuru Reviewer
    2006 Dell CSP
    2006, 2007 & 2008 MVP Visual Basic
    If your question has been answered satisfactorily, and it has been helpful, then, please, Rate this Post!

  15. #165
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    592

    Re: Why VB 6.0??

    yeah, but not recommend because of the .net is your so called tool which replaces the apis.. sorry for the misunderstanding.
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