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Thread: Please help save VB6

  1. #46
    DataMiser is offline Super Moderator Power Poster
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    Re: Please help save VB6

    Regardless. It is still VB it is just different than it was 15 years ago just like VB6 is completely different than the brand of basic that MS was offering 15 years before VB6.

    Things change, that's just the way it is.

    I also doubt that even with updates to it that VB6 would have been altered to be able to create XBox games, Windows Phone apps, Silverlight and such
    Last edited by DataMiser; February 22nd, 2013 at 10:43 AM.
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  2. #47
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    Re: Please help save VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by Coder Dave View Post
    By "behind the scenes" you mean within the run-time DLLs. The run-time DLLs, in turn, call the Windows API.
    Yes, that's what I mean. Although I suspect that in some future incarnation, .net may not use the exported functions. In fact, I don't know if it uses them currently. I've seen code examples of how to access DLL functions that aren't exported, so that's why it wouldn't surprise me if the windows API eventually goes away. Yes, gazillions of programs depend on it, but Microsoft seems to have a tendency to change the game anytime they want. And if they want as many programmers using .net as they can get, this would seem to be one way to do it. Besides, it could certainly put a big dent in the competition for desktop apps, if most applications have to be accessed over the Internet.

    As far as DLL versions goes, the Windows API DLLs (kernel32.dll, gdi32.dll, user32.dll, ...) are written to be backwards compatible. Newer versions of the DLLs may contain additional export functions, but the previous export functions should not change or disappear. Only official Windows updates should ever replace the Windows API files. Other software installations should never do that. Likewise, applications that use their own support DLLs, should install those DLL files in their own folders along side their executable files, not in the Windows directory! This may have been done in the pass to save on hard disk space, but there is absolutely no reason for it anymore. (Third party driver files that have to be installed in the Windows directory can still cause conflicts.)
    Sure, but the less competition there is, the less the possibility for conflicts. Still, while it may play a part, I don't think this factor is a major motivation for the push behind .net.

    The Windows Application Programming Interface will never be discontinued! As I wrote before, the Windows API is how every application communicates with the operating system, whether you see it or not.
    See above.

    The only people, who consider accessing the Windows API directly to be "taboo", are those who want you to only use .NET and those who fear what they do not know. .NET will never be fully embraced because it uses an intermediate code middle man which slows it down. Code written to call the Windows API directly will run faster with less memory overhead. I write all my applications to call the Windows API directly. Sure, it takes some time to learn the Windows API, but it is not any harder than learning the constantly changing frameworks. To make development quicker, code can be reused over and over.
    Yes, that's what I was getting at. Incidentally, I also use the API directly, whenever it'll make a positive difference, which is just about everywhere.

    If the Window APIs or any libraries for that matter are carefully updated to be fully backwards compatible, the existing interfaces will not change.
    I mean the interface provided by .net. There are a bunch of deprecated functions which I'm sure they'd gladly strip from the windows core DLL files once they got enough programs to stop using them. I've also read that there are a number of popular programs which use techniques which Microsoft doesn't appreciate, so weeding those out would work in their favor as well. They apparently have to keep certain things unchanged just because of the wide use of such programs. The more programmers Microsoft can get on board .net, the more freedom it gives them to rework the core.
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  3. #48
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    Re: Please help save VB6

    Therein lies the key to the problem:
    It has everything to do with how the user gets something done
    Things have changed over the years.
    David

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  4. #49
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    Re: Please help save VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by WizBang View Post
    Sure, but the less competition there is, the less the possibility for conflicts. Still, while it may play a part, I don't think this factor is a major motivation for the push behind .net.
    Quote Originally Posted by WizBang View Post
    I actually suspect that Microsoft may hope to discontinue the windows API altogether, perhaps in part to put an end to the debacle of DLL mismatching.
    DLL mismatching is a no longer an issue, but by suggesting that it is, you are actually helping the push towards .NET.

    Quote Originally Posted by WizBang View Post
    Yes, that's what I mean. Although I suspect that in some future incarnation, .net may not use the exported functions.
    In other words, the .NET run-time will be incorporated into the Windows operating system, if this has not already been done. Microsoft could then phase out executable files with byte code files taking their place. Microsoft would essentially become another Apple, forcing third party software vendors to use Microsoft's development tools and possibly taking a chunk of the software revenue as well. Apple already does this. They get 30% of anything sold through their App Store and their iOS development environment forces developers to use their App Store. Microsoft sees how much money Apple is making and they want that money too.

    If Microsoft does this, I predict there would be a major migration to Linux or other operating systems, although Microsoft would surely still enjoy a hefty piece of the market. Some people simply would not upgrade to the so-called "latest and greatest" version of Windows, much like people stopped upgrading to Windows Vista. Unfortunately, this may prevent them from upgrading their hardware as well since the older versions of Windows will no longer be available and may not take advantage of new hardware features. Of course, hackers will find a way around this, but their actions will not be deemed legal by Microsoft. That will not help people like us who are trying to make an honest living.

    Sorry for getting a little off topic here, but your fight to save Visual Basic 6 may ultimately be a fight to save Windows as we know it. There are a lot of other non-.NET languages out there, so I doubt Microsoft will ever be completely successful.
    Last edited by Coder Dave; February 22nd, 2013 at 04:54 PM.

  5. #50
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    Re: Please help save VB6

    Things have changed over the years.
    and

    ...your fight to save Visual Basic 6 may ultimately be a fight to save Windows as we know it.
    QT for Basic is a perfect example of how the vb6 style can survive just fine, regardless of platform. So regardless of OS and this dll and that dll, QT will be there as if nothing changed, AND will continue to grow alongside .Net.

    Personally, I think that MS has reached their peak in popularity and I think they may actually be on the down-slope...But you don't see it yet because they have only just started their downward curve where the slope of the curve is still near zero. Give them about 15 years to destroy their market share advantage.
    Last edited by treddie; February 22nd, 2013 at 09:03 PM.

  6. #51
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    Re: Please help save VB6

    C had the same problem, then C+ came along, then C++ and now v11. Quite different, and for the better
    David

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  7. #52
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    Re: Please help save VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by Coder Dave View Post
    DLL mismatching is a no longer an issue, but by suggesting that it is, you are actually helping the push towards .NET.
    I'm not entirely sure about this, as I've had a few DLL version mismatches/conflicts even with xp, such as when installing VB6.
    In other words, the .NET run-time will be incorporated into the Windows operating system, if this has not already been done. Microsoft could then phase out executable files with byte code files taking their place. Microsoft would essentially become another Apple, forcing third party software vendors to use Microsoft's development tools and possibly taking a chunk of the software revenue as well. Apple already does this. They get 30% of anything sold through their App Store and their iOS development environment forces developers to use their App Store. Microsoft sees how much money Apple is making and they want that money too.

    If Microsoft does this, I predict there would be a major migration to Linux or other operating systems, although Microsoft would surely still enjoy a hefty piece of the market. Some people simply would not upgrade to the so-called "latest and greatest" version of Windows, much like people stopped upgrading to Windows Vista. Unfortunately, this may prevent them from upgrading their hardware as well since the older versions of Windows will no longer be available and may not take advantage of new hardware features. Of course, hackers will find a way around this, but their actions will not be deemed legal by Microsoft. That will not help people like us who are trying to make an honest living.

    Sorry for getting a little off topic here, but your fight to save Visual Basic 6 may ultimately be a fight to save Windows as we know it. There are a lot of other non-.NET languages out there, so I doubt Microsoft will ever be completely successful.
    Interesting. And yes, there certainly are plenty of programming platforms/languages around besides .net. But one of the irritating things which comes up in these sorts of topics is how many people seem to forget that, as if they're "forced" to use .net just because it's what Microsoft is pushing. Two others which are more-or-less a flavor of Basic include RealBasic and LibertyBasic. There's also Delphi, and some open-source projects as well. Heck, I'd even consider creating one too, if it was a group effort.
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  8. #53
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    Re: Please help save VB6

    Two others which are more-or-less a flavor of Basic include RealBasic and LibertyBasic.
    Basic for QT...Basic for QT...Basic for QT...
    Last edited by treddie; February 23rd, 2013 at 03:51 PM.

  9. #54
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    Re: Please help save VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by treddie View Post
    Basic for QT...Basic for QT...Basic for QT...
    Yeah. OK, so I downloaded the humungous installation file, and installed it. Thus far I'm not very impressed. However, this thread isn't an appropriate place to discuss it.
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  10. #55
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    Re: Please help save VB6

    When you look at the speed of progress for all the technologies out there, like parallel programming, programing the GPU, new platforms like metro, the phone and tablets, there is so much to keep up with as a programmer to stay competitive without wishing that MS would revive VB6 - even if that were possible.

  11. #56
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    Re: Please help save VB6

    It's NOT, though...
    David

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  12. #57
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    Re: Please help save VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by Arjay View Post
    When you look at the speed of progress for all the technologies out there, like parallel programming, programing the GPU, new platforms like metro, the phone and tablets, there is so much to keep up with as a programmer to stay competitive without wishing that MS would revive VB6 - even if that were possible.
    That is so true!

    Even the qualifications for .NET ( The MCSD / MCPD / MCSD ) keeps on changing; it is so difficult to keep up. I got to a point where I decided well, I'm not going to write any of those exams, because one month from now there is something "better"....

  13. #58
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    Re: Please help save VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by Arjay View Post
    When you look at the speed of progress for all the technologies out there, like parallel programming, programing the GPU, new platforms like metro, the phone and tablets, there is so much to keep up with as a programmer to stay competitive without wishing that MS would revive VB6 - even if that were possible.
    Quote Originally Posted by dglienna View Post
    It's NOT, though...
    Of course it's possible. Any program can be updated, as long as they still have the source code. However, what I would not want is for VB6 to become bloatware.
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  14. #59
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    Re: Please help save VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by WizBang View Post
    Of course it's possible. Any program can be updated, as long as they still have the source code.
    Maybe possible, but most likely impractical.

    I just don't see MS spending the investment, especially since there doesn't appear to be any gain for Microsoft.

  15. #60
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    Re: Please help save VB6

    Quote Originally Posted by Arjay View Post
    Maybe possible, but most likely impractical.

    I just don't see MS spending the investment, especially since there doesn't appear to be any gain for Microsoft.
    I'll agree that updating VB6 doesn't fit into their playbook. That's for sure.

    However, the good news is that there's no reason why VB6, and programs written with it, won't continue to function for some time to come. Just because it hasn't gotten a facelift recently doesn't mean it's unusable.

    Perhaps those who view programming with the same "soundbite mentality" as is the case for Hollywood gossip, and pop music's flavor of the day, may always find themselves jumping on the latest bandwagon. Thus always feeling like they're constantly playing a game of catch-up.
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