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Thread: Input wanted: 3rd Party Products

  1. #16
    Arjay's Avatar
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    Re: Input wanted: 3rd Party Products

    Quote Originally Posted by wolle View Post
    There is strong competition, for example from Eclipse IDE for C/C++.
    Eclipse has never been close to having the feature set of Visual C++. It's UI and workflow looks like it was designed in the 1990's. It's seems much of its popularity is due to it being non-Microsoft, but using Eclipse after Visual C++ is like taking a trip back in time.

  2. #17
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    Re: Input wanted: 3rd Party Products

    Quote Originally Posted by Arjay View Post
    Eclipse has never been close to having the feature set of Visual C++.
    I didn't say one was better than the other. I just mentioned a popular competitor.

    I think introducing a free community version of Visual C++ made more for its popularity than all technical features combined. To be popular it's not enough to look good you know, you must have a pleasant personality too.

  3. #18
    John E is offline Elite Member Power Poster
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    Re: Input wanted: 3rd Party Products

    Does anyone have any experience with F#? Apparently it produces native apps (i.e. which don't need a runtime interpreter) and its projects can be shared between the Mac and Windows versions of Visual Studio (and apparently, the F# Software Foundation even produces a cross-platform compiler...)

    I've never used F# but the code samples I've seen looked kinda like a combination of C++ and C# (with a bit of Basic thrown in !!)
    Last edited by John E; October 7th, 2019 at 04:21 AM.
    "A problem well stated is a problem half solved. - Charles F. Kettering

  4. #19
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    Re: Input wanted: 3rd Party Products

    Pretty sure F# is another dot net runtime language like C# and VB.net.

    .Net Core does run on multiple platforms though.

  5. #20
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    Re: Input wanted: 3rd Party Products

    From Microsoft.

    F# is a programming language that provides support for functional programming in addition to traditional object-oriented and imperative (procedural) programming. The Visual F# product provides support for developing F# applications and extending other .NET Framework applications by using F# code. F# is a first-class member of the .NET Framework languages and retains a strong resemblance to the ML family of functional languages.
    See https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/fsharp/
    All advice is offered in good faith only. All my code is tested (unless stated explicitly otherwise) with the latest version of Microsoft Visual Studio (using the supported features of the latest standard) and is offered as examples only - not as production quality. I cannot offer advice regarding any other c/c++ compiler/IDE or incompatibilities with VS. You are ultimately responsible for the effects of your programs and the integrity of the machines they run on. Anything I post, code snippets, advice, etc is licensed as Public Domain https://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/zero/1.0/ and can be used without reference or acknowledgement. Also note that I only provide advice and guidance via the forums - and not via private messages!

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  6. #21
    John E is offline Elite Member Power Poster
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    Re: Input wanted: 3rd Party Products

    Quote Originally Posted by wolle View Post
    I don't think there will ever be a complete Visual Studio including ported versions of Microsoft's compilers, debuggers, build systems and other sub-components on all major platforms.
    And yet this is sooo important for C++. Like I said earlier, it's become very difficult now to justify building any commercial app any more with Visual C++ (precisely because it can't build for the non-Windows platforms). gcc nailed this years ago and will happily build programs to run on Windows, Linux and MacOS - so you'd think if gcc can do it, surely the big guns within Microsoft can figure it out??
    "A problem well stated is a problem half solved. - Charles F. Kettering

  7. #22
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    Re: Input wanted: 3rd Party Products

    surely the big guns within Microsoft can figure it out??
    The issue isn't technical (as you say, gcc sorted this out years ago) - its marketing etc. IMO it's a hangover from when Microsoft ruled the desktop/server markets and smart phones/tablets hadn't yet conquered. MS have only fairly recently acknowledged Linux and open-source! Change within MS is like having to reverse a super-oil tanker going full-ahead towards the rocks. Even when its engines are put into full reverse, it takes a long time for the tanker to even stop going towards disaster, never mind change direction to safety.
    All advice is offered in good faith only. All my code is tested (unless stated explicitly otherwise) with the latest version of Microsoft Visual Studio (using the supported features of the latest standard) and is offered as examples only - not as production quality. I cannot offer advice regarding any other c/c++ compiler/IDE or incompatibilities with VS. You are ultimately responsible for the effects of your programs and the integrity of the machines they run on. Anything I post, code snippets, advice, etc is licensed as Public Domain https://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/zero/1.0/ and can be used without reference or acknowledgement. Also note that I only provide advice and guidance via the forums - and not via private messages!

    C++17 Compiler: Microsoft VS2019 (16.3.9)

  8. #23
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    Re: Input wanted: 3rd Party Products

    Quote Originally Posted by John E View Post
    And yet this is sooo important for C++. Like I said earlier, it's become very difficult now to justify building any commercial app any more with Visual C++ (precisely because it can't build for the non-Windows platforms). gcc nailed this years ago and will happily build programs to run on Windows, Linux and MacOS - so you'd think if gcc can do it, surely the big guns within Microsoft can figure it out??
    In the grand scheme of things, desktop apps don't have that much market share anymore, and doing one in C++ is even less.

  9. #24
    John E is offline Elite Member Power Poster
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    Re: Input wanted: 3rd Party Products

    Yeah, I guess the problem is that C++ itself has become marginalised as a programming language. It's still the #1 choice for 'performance' apps (pro audio / video / graphics etc) but where high performance isn't required, C++ doesn't seem to get used much any more.

    I joined LinkedIn many years ago and every day I get sent at least 5 notifications for scripting jobs and C# etc - but it's very, very rare to see a vacancy any more for a C++ programmer.
    "A problem well stated is a problem half solved. - Charles F. Kettering

  10. #25
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    Re: Input wanted: 3rd Party Products

    For non-performance gui programs, hardly anyone uses C++ these days. C++ is evolving the 'technical' side of its language, but nothing is being done re the client-side visual gui aspects where you still need to use 3rd party libraries etc. Probably the large majority of existing C++ non-performance gui programs are legacy/existing ones. I'd be interested in any statistics regarding using C++ for new gui programs.
    Last edited by 2kaud; October 10th, 2019 at 03:48 AM.
    All advice is offered in good faith only. All my code is tested (unless stated explicitly otherwise) with the latest version of Microsoft Visual Studio (using the supported features of the latest standard) and is offered as examples only - not as production quality. I cannot offer advice regarding any other c/c++ compiler/IDE or incompatibilities with VS. You are ultimately responsible for the effects of your programs and the integrity of the machines they run on. Anything I post, code snippets, advice, etc is licensed as Public Domain https://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/zero/1.0/ and can be used without reference or acknowledgement. Also note that I only provide advice and guidance via the forums - and not via private messages!

    C++17 Compiler: Microsoft VS2019 (16.3.9)

  11. #26
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    Re: Input wanted: 3rd Party Products

    Quote Originally Posted by John E View Post
    Yeah, I guess the problem is that C++ itself has become marginalised as a programming language.
    According to the TIOBE index for October 2019,

    https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/

    roughly the same 8 languages have been on top for 15 years. C++ is currently at place 4 with a solid 6% rating so there seems to be no immediate risk of marginalization and definitely no extinction in sight.

    As many others I sometimes dream of a GUI and a garbage collector as standard parts of C++but I realize it would put a huge burden on the standardization committee as well as on the companies who are expected to supply high quality implementations. The risk is that C++ would become too inflated and implode under it's own weight. C++ is very complex already but such additions might finally push it over the edge.

    Considering this I think the current strategy to concentrate on the core language is the better option even though it means C++ is unable to follow the trend and become "easy" for everybody and their grandma. I like that C++ is sticking to its roots as a no nonsense high performance language and I admire that it has managed to stay that way while reinventing itself as a modern language since C++ 11.
    Last edited by wolle; October 12th, 2019 at 03:04 AM.

  12. #27
    John E is offline Elite Member Power Poster
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    Re: Input wanted: 3rd Party Products

    It's interesting that C, C++ and C# are all within the top 5. I know from my experience with LinkedIn that job opportunities for a C developer probably arrive reasonably frequently (at least 1 per week - although they're invariably for embedded programing). C++ opportunities are extremely rare (probably just a few each year). Whereas every day there'll be at least 3 notifications for a C# dev.

    But all that aside... I still think Visual C++ itself will become an irrelevance if it doesn't start targeting Linux and Mac (and pretty soon !!)
    Last edited by John E; October 12th, 2019 at 03:16 AM.
    "A problem well stated is a problem half solved. - Charles F. Kettering

  13. #28
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    Re: Input wanted: 3rd Party Products

    Quote Originally Posted by John E View Post
    It's interesting that C, C++ and C# are all within the top 5. I know from my experience with LinkedIn that job opportunities for a C developer probably arrive reasonably frequently (at least 1 per week - although they're invariably for embedded programing). C++ opportunities are extremely rare (probably just a few each year). Whereas every day there'll be at least 3 notifications for a C# dev.

    But all that aside... I still think Visual C++ itself will become an irrelevance if it doesn't start targeting Linux and Mac (and pretty soon !!)
    Many of the languages within Visual Studio already target Linux and Mac.

  14. #29
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    Re: Input wanted: 3rd Party Products

    C, C++ ... are all within the top 5.
    Is C because of use in embedded - and C++ because of legacy programs???
    All advice is offered in good faith only. All my code is tested (unless stated explicitly otherwise) with the latest version of Microsoft Visual Studio (using the supported features of the latest standard) and is offered as examples only - not as production quality. I cannot offer advice regarding any other c/c++ compiler/IDE or incompatibilities with VS. You are ultimately responsible for the effects of your programs and the integrity of the machines they run on. Anything I post, code snippets, advice, etc is licensed as Public Domain https://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/zero/1.0/ and can be used without reference or acknowledgement. Also note that I only provide advice and guidance via the forums - and not via private messages!

    C++17 Compiler: Microsoft VS2019 (16.3.9)

  15. #30
    John E is offline Elite Member Power Poster
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    Re: Input wanted: 3rd Party Products

    Quote Originally Posted by Arjay View Post
    Many of the languages within Visual Studio already target Linux and Mac.
    But (importantly) C++ isn't among them - and I think the ones that do target those other OS's are the low power languages (which run via some kind of runtime interpreter).


    Quote Originally Posted by 2kaud View Post
    Is C because of use in embedded - and C++ because of legacy programs???
    That'd definitely be my guess.
    "A problem well stated is a problem half solved. - Charles F. Kettering

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