God and religion

And in another famous book, Sherlock Holmes said, "I cannot make bricks without clay."

Is that a reference to him being the creator of the universe? Does it even prove that he was a bricklayer?

The gospel is typically symbolically linked to water. John 4:14, Ephesians 5:26-27, Ezekiel 36:25.

Jesus refers to Himself as the bread of life. (John 6:48)

Without food and water we physically die.

Without Jesus and the gospel we will experience eternal death.
Jesus and God's Word are the very essence of life.

Hmm... interesting... God is also known as a rock.
(2 Samuel 23:3, Psalm 78:35)

Jesus the chief cornerstone. (Ephesians 2:20)
I wonder if this has anything to do with the time Moses struck the rock and water came out? Exodus 17:6.

So what is God trying to say?
Out of Christ comes the living water of the gospel whereby man may drink of it and live eternally. We will spiritually live just as Israel drank of the waters that came out of the rock Moses struck in the desert and lived physically.

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Originally Posted by Rigel

So what is God trying to say?

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But this is exactly my point.... you cannot take words and assume - simply from the mere words themselves - that they must have been written by God. Humans are perfectly capable of profound and cryptic writings. Most things that humans write can be interpreted in different ways - but that is not proof that they are the words of God.

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Originally Posted by Rigel

Read Isaiah 53... tell me this isn't a reference to the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.

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It isn't. Let's take it verse by vese.

When you read the chapter, the first thing you should notice is that past tense is used most of the cases, thus indicating a man that lived before the recording of the events: "his visage was so marred" (52:14) and "we hid," "he was despised," "we esteemed" (53:3) and "he hath borne," "smitten of God and afflicted" (53:4) and "he was wounded," "he was bruised" (53:5) and "He was oppressed, and he was afflicted" (53:6) and "He was taken and cut off" (53:8) and "he made his grave" and "he had done no violence" (53:9).

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Originally Posted by Isaiah 52:13

Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.

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Jesus was not exalted and extolled, but was mocked, spat, whipped and crucified. Moreover, appellative "servant" could point anyone not particularly Jesus.

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Originally Posted by Isaiah 53:2

For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or majesty that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him. (English Standard Version)

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Expression "he shall grow up" from KJV is not the proper translation, which can be found in the English Standard Version, for example. Again, the past tense, not the future.

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Originally Posted by Isaiah 53:3

He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

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These verse clearly contradicts verse 52:12 were he was supposed to be "extolled and exalted". The word "grief" from "acquainted with grief" is translated from choliy (khol-ee'), Strong Hebrew #2483, which means malady, anxiety, calamity: - disease, grief, (is) sick (-ness). The real meaning of the word in the text is sickness, not grief. The Jews had no conception of a suffering Messiah, who was supposed to be a mighty ruler and defeat their enemies.

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Originally Posted by Isaiah 53:4

Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

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Jesus was killed my men not by God. How could God find pleasure in killing his own son?

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Originally Posted by Isaiah 53:5

But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

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These refer to Israel, because prophets had often designated humiliation and adversities as sickness and wounds. Here are some examples.

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  Originally Posted by Isaiah 1:5-6

  Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.
  From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.

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  Originally Posted by Jeremiah 10:19

  Woe is me for my hurt! my wound is grievous: but I said, Truly this is a grief, and I must bear it.

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  Originally Posted by Jeremiah 33:6-8

  Behold, I will bring it health and cure, and I will cure them, and will reveal unto them the abundance of peace and truth.
  And I will cause the captivity of Judah and the captivity of Israel to return, and will build them, as at the first.
  And I will cleanse them from all their iniquity, whereby they have sinned against me; and I will pardon all their iniquities, whereby they have sinned, and whereby they have transgressed against me.

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  Originally Posted by Hosea 6:1

  Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.

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Originally Posted by Isaiah 53:5

But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

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Jesus was more than just wounded, he was actually killed.

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Originally Posted by Isaiah 53:7

He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

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Jesus did speak according to the New Testament:

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  Originally Posted by John 18:21-23

  Why askest thou me? ask them which heard me, what I have said unto them: behold, they know what I said.
  And when he had thus spoken, one of the officers which stood by struck Jesus with the palm of his hand, saying, Answerest thou the high priest so?
  Jesus answered him, If I have spoken evil, bear witness of the evil: but if well, why smitest thou me?

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  Originally Posted by Matthew 27:46

  And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

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Thus Jesus did open his mouth when oppressed and even called for help.

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Originally Posted by Isaiah 53:8

He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

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I though Jesus died for all mankind not only for the Jewish people.

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Originally Posted by Isaiah 53:9

And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

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Jesus is thought to have been buried alone. If he was buried with the wicked in a poor tomb it would contradict another prophecy from Isaiah:

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Originally Posted by Isaiah 11:10

And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

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Actually the whole prophecy was inversed for Jesus, for he was killed with the wicked on the cross and buried in a sepulcher of the rich Joseph of Arimathoea. Moreover, we are told that he had done no violence, but Jesus did:

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  Originally Posted by Mark 11:15

  And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves;

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  Originally Posted by John 2:15

  And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;

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Jesus acted with violence in the Temple, contradicting the prophecy.

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Originally Posted by Isaiah 53:10

Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

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Why did God find a pleasure in afflicting his only son? This verse says that it was God's wish not Jesus' to die. Jesus had no children, but the verse says that the One shall see his seed, thus excluding Jesus from the equation. The word seed, translated from zera (zeh'-rah), Strong Hebrew #2233, means seed; figuratively fruit, plant, sowing time, posterity: - X carnally, child, fruitful, seed (-time), sowing-time. It is always used in the Old Testament for offspring, descendants, and could not be rendered to the apostles. Moreover, the prophecy says that "he shall prolong his days", thus live long, but Jesus died at the age of 33.

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Originally Posted by Isaiah 53:12

Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

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How could Jesus divide a portion with the great? Who is greater than him? The rulers of the Earth, or the angles? He should divide the spoil with the strong? The god of the Universe takes war prey? That would fit for a leader, for a king of man, not for God. In fact that is exactly what the Jews expected, a king to save them and make them great among the nations of the Earth.

So, doesn't seem to me a prophecy about Jesus.

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Originally Posted by John E

But this is exactly my point.... you cannot take words and assume - simply from the mere words themselves - that they must have been written by God. Humans are perfectly capable of profound and cryptic writings. Most things that humans write can be interpreted in different ways - but that is not proof that they are the words of God.

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Explain this:


Ok so what you are saying is that Jesus read the Old Testament. Is an extreme lunatic who decides to declare he is God. And tries to prove it using deep meanings and parables like these?

Did you read my previous post about how Israel had to sacrifice a Lamb and in order to prevent the angel of death from coming into their homes and destroying their first born? They had to put the blood of the lamb on the doorposts of the houses to prevent this calamity. Bear in mind God commanded Israel to sacrifice a "Lamb without blemish". This day is and has been celebrated by the Jews as the Passover.

Long before Jesus was crucified the scriptures and people like John the Baptist declare Jesus to be the "Lamb of God" that takes away the sin of the world. Jesus is also without blemish or sin.
Jesus declares Mark 14:24 "And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many"
Jesus must have been extremely intelligent to have timed his death so that he was crucified on the exact day the Jews celebrated the Passover.

Tell me now... why would anyone on earth go to the trouble of timing their death like this in this fashion? How did Jesus do it so that he can get people to crucify him on the Jewish Passover day?

Why on earth does God lead Israel out of Egypt after the Passover occurred? Hmmm... Well because God is leading Israel to the "promised land" with the leadership of Moses. When Jesus was crucified God also brings his people to the "promised land" and that is heaven itself.

Are you telling me this isn't divine?

That's exactly what I'm saying, Rigel.... none of what you've said is proof that the Bible wasn't written by man.

Instead of quoting from the Bible, give me an explanation for why those words could not have been written by humans?

Rigel, you must make the distinction between belief and proof.

I think this is proof enough for me.

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You want answers?

I want the truth!

You can't handle the truth!

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:D

That was said by Jack Nicholson in Men of Honor. ;)

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Originally Posted by cilu

That was said by Jack Nicholson in Men of Honor. ;)

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Close... A Few Good Men :)

Oh dear me, a Bible study on CG... What has the world come to... :rolleyes:

Nice work Cilu & Rigel.

Cilu, you need to study how to interpret the Bible if you want to get anything out of it.

There are 3 main points in Biblical interpretation.

1) The exegesis where we look at things like the form, the translations of the keywords, the setting (ie who was this adressed to originally, what was the social/econimic/religious status of the people it was written to etc, where does it fit in history?), the context of the verses within its own chapter, within its own book and where it all fits within Biblical Theology (the story of the Bible as a whole) and we finally look at what if any was the main point of the writing.

2) Then we explain what the verses are meant to mean to the original readers and look at similar verses, similar concepts (and their settings) and if we are to truly understand the whole point of the verses we are trying to understand we read the book of those verses several times just to get a gist of the meaning. You will need tools such as a Bible Concordance, a good Bible Dictionary and a couple of different good Bible Commentaries to do this step right.

3) Then we apply what the meaning is to todays readers, looking at the original meaning & setting & trying to see if there may be similar situations today. We also look at things like what the scripture being studied teaches us (ie does it teach us something about God, humanity, the Church etc) and we look at what the scripture leads us to do (prayer or praise).

Thats how you study scripture. There are many good books on Biblical interpretation.


Rigel:

I think I misunderstood something you said above, to me it sounded like a doctrinal error.

Jesus ultimately paid for everyones sin. And God doesn't want anyone to perish.

The rest of what you said was great, thanks for the great read. :)

can someone say something about this...

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Originally Posted by Luke 19:26-28

He replied, 'I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what he has will be taken away. But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them.. bring them here and kill them in front of me.' After Jesus had said this, he went on ahead, going up to Jerusalem.

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maybe this is not a right place to ask.... but I can't get any satisfied answer yet...

//I still believe in God..just curious...

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Originally Posted by mrRee

can someone say something about this...


maybe this is not a right place to ask.... but I can't get any satisfied answer yet...

//I still believe in God..just curious...

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Let's look at those verses in context.

It is a parable told when Jesus was about to enter Jerusalem where he would be betrayed & killed during the Jewish festival of Passover.

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Luke 19:11-27 (The Parable of the Ten Minas)

11While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable, because he was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once. 12He said: "A man of noble birth went to a distant country to have himself appointed king and then to return. 13So he called ten of his servants and gave them ten minas.'Put this money to work,' he said, 'until I come back.'

14"But his subjects hated him and sent a delegation after him to say, 'We don't want this man to be our king.'

15"He was made king, however, and returned home. Then he sent for the servants to whom he had given the money, in order to find out what they had gained with it.

16"The first one came and said, 'Sir, your mina has earned ten more.'

17" 'Well done, my good servant!' his master replied. 'Because you have been trustworthy in a very small matter, take charge of ten cities.'

18"The second came and said, 'Sir, your mina has earned five more.'

19"His master answered, 'You take charge of five cities.'

20"Then another servant came and said, 'Sir, here is your mina; I have kept it laid away in a piece of cloth. 21I was afraid of you, because you are a hard man. You take out what you did not put in and reap what you did not sow.'

22"His master replied, 'I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant! You knew, did you, that I am a hard man, taking out what I did not put in, and reaping what I did not sow? 23Why then didn't you put my money on deposit, so that when I came back, I could have collected it with interest?'

24"Then he said to those standing by, 'Take his mina away from him and give it to the one who has ten minas.'

25" 'Sir,' they said, 'he already has ten!'

26"He replied, 'I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what he has will be taken away. 27But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me."

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It is a parable, meaning, a story to get a point across.

Jesus has already emphasised and re-emphasised God's coming judgement to the people before this and this is another example.

He is telling people that God will hold people accountable with what they do with the gospel they receive. Those who put it to good use will be blessed, those who keep it to themselves will be blessed less. And those who rejected God altogether will be judged. This is what the parable means.

The verses you quoted, when out of context, portray Jesus to be a dictator, a mass murderer, which is clearly not the case when you look at things in context. That's why it is important not to take things out of context.

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Originally Posted by Rigel

Close... A Few Good Men :)

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Oops... English -> Romanian -> English translation took the toll. :blush:

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Oh dear me, a Bible study on CG... What has the world come to...

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Oh yeah I know... don't even get me started. I can just go on and on about the Bible. :p

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I think I misunderstood something you said above, to me it sounded like a doctrinal error.

Jesus ultimately paid for everyones sin. And God doesn't want anyone to perish.

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I know it sounds like a doctrinal error but it isn't.
Every sin has a certain punishment associated with it. God is perfectly just and righteous in executing justice. Therefore if Christ paid for everyone's sin, no one can be sent into damnation. It is impossible since their sins have been paid for.

People can say "We can accept or reject salvation". If they reject salvation for what sin will God impute against them?
God would be unjust to condemn a person for a sin that has already been paid for.

God does not wish for any of his people whom he has chosen to perish. Just as God has chosen the nation of Israel in the Old Testament, so he has chosen his true spiritual nation. The nation of Israel were a small selected group of people compared to the nations around them. This is a shadow of the true nation of Israel, the body of believers. This cannot be every single human being.