Where are we from ?

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Originally posted by saturno7
In Spain we have also this kind of engineers, they are called 'Ingeniero de Informática'. Informática is how Computer Sciences is called here, so it's the same as in Belgium.

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"Informatica" is also how they call it over here. I think it is either one of the reasons below they call it computer sciences:

1. To discern with "licentiaat informatica" = "informaticus": translated a licentiate in computer sciences.

2. Because the longer the title ( check out "ingenieur in de computer wetenschappen" vs. "ingenieur informatica"), the bigger the ego of an engineer swells. :D ;) :p

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Originally posted by Simon666

"Informatica" is also how they call it over here. I think it is either one of the reasons below they call it computer sciences:

1. To discern with "licentiaat informatica" = "informaticus": translated a licentiate in computer sciences.

2. Because the longer the title, the bigger the ego of an engineer swells. :D ;) :p

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This is something I have never quite understood. We also have 'Licenciado en Informática', but I don't see the need for having both things. Moreover having also a Technical Engineer in Computer Science (Ingeniero Técnico de Informática). :confused:

'Ingeniero de Informática' = 'Ingeniero Técnico de Informática'? :confused:

Now you're confusing me. Are there 3 or two names, did you forget 'Técnico' the first time? What's the difference?

A licentiate in computer sciences in Belgium (="informaticus"="licentiaat informatica") is from the start on educated in programming languages and some math and the education lasts 4 years.

An engineer in computer sciences in Belgium (="ingenieur in de computer wetenschappen") is in the first two years educated like other engineers with math, physics, chemistry and so on, but only in the last three years of the five year education he sees programming and/or other things on computers. He also gets the title of engineer.

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Originally posted by Simon666
'Ingeniero de Informática' = 'Ingeniero Técnico de Informática'? :confused:

Now you're confusing me. Are there 3 or two names, did you forget 'Técnico' the first time? What's the difference?

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In Spain we have:

Ingeniero de Informática = Engineer of Computer Sciences, 5 years degree
Ingeniero Técnico de Informática = Technical Engineer of Computer Sciences, 3 years degree
Licenciado de Informática = Licentiate in Computer Sciences, 5 years degree.

So, what I don't see is the difference between Engineer and Licentiate, above all thinking that both degrees are 5 years long.:confused:

Ana.

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Originally posted by saturno7
Ingeniero Técnico de Informática = Technical Engineer of Computer Sciences, 3 years degree

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A three year education with the title of engineer? Impossible in Belgium, civil engineer is always 5 years, industrial engineer 4 years. You also have "graduaat informatica" in Belgium, graduate studies are usually three years. I've heard from my brother (licentiate informatics) these guys know little. I like the Belgian system better. It is quite transparent:

graduaat : 3 years, prefix : grad.
licentiaat : 4 years, prefix : lic.
ingenieur :
- industrieel (industrial) :
- - 4 years
- - prefix : ing.
- - lower level than civil engineer
- - not at university but at "high school" translated
- burgerlijk (civil) :
- - 5 years
- - prefix : ir.
- - highest level
- - at univeristy

Further more there are the medical studies which last even longer.

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Originally posted by Simon666

A three year education with the title of engineer? Impossible in Belgium, civil engineer is always 5 years, industrial engineer 4 years. You also have "graduaat informatica" in Belgium, graduate studies are usually three years. I've heard from my brother (licentiate informatics) these guys know little. I like the Belgian system better. It is quite transparent:

graduaat : 3 years, prefix : grad.
licentiaat : 4 years, prefix : lic.
ingenieur :
- industrieel (industrial) :
- - 4 years
- - prefix : ing.
- - lower level than civil engineer
- - not at university but at "high school" translated
- burgerlijk (civil) :
- - 5 years
- - prefix : ir.
- - highest level
- - at univeristy

Further more there are the medical studies which last even longer.

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It's completely different in Spain!!

It's a little bit difficult for me to explain all the educational system at once, but I'll try to do it. Let's say that we have remains from the former system (that in the 70's, when my parents studied), which separated technical studies and non-technical ones.

At the present moment, in Spain we have different categories.
- Diplomate (diplomado, I'm not sure about the translation, but it's not graduate as this is the term for someone who passes the primary school) -> 3 years degree of non-technical studies.
- Licentiate (licenciado) -> 4 or 5 years degree of non-technical studies.
- Technical Engineer (ingeniero técnico) -> 3 years technical degree.
- Engineer (ingeniero or ingeniero superior) -> 5 years technical studies.
- Doctor (doctor) -> a licentiate or engineer that has done a doctoral thesis.
- Doctor (in the sense of medecin studies, licenciado en medicina) -> 6 years degree + exam + residence and practising in a hospital = 9 or 10 years degree.

There are other kind of studies wich are not those of the University. They are called Professional Education (Formación Profesional) and have also several categories. They are for people who decide to go to one of these specialized schools instead to the high school.

I think that's all. Ten years ago all the degrees lasted one year more, but they changed it to a semestral program (two semestrals by years, but they really last four months each). You have the exams in February and June, and then a special chance in September.

Any more doubts?. I think this is not quite clear even for me, a Spanish citizen. :rolleyes: :)

PS. I forgot to say that the frontier between technical and non-technical is nowadays very confusing. For some degrees it's clear, but there are some others than you wouldn't ever know how to classify.

Yes university is not very expensive.
It is still about 411 € a year (about the same in dollars), and cheaper for those who have a grant. Which means if you can't have a grant, you should get a summer job, or deliver pizza at your free time to get the money. Or you are lucky. :o)
But there are a lot of private school (not paid by the government) in which a year is roughly 4110 € (yes 10x).

Also we don't use the titles much, only for joking, like after the PhD evaluation (presentation of the thesis) we call the guy Doctor for a day ... :) He is doctor, ès whatever (not philosophy only, ès Maths, ès Computer Science, ...).
doctor is mostly used for the medicine doctor. Professor for the teacher (whatever his level). It is not a title written on the business card.

a lot of industry leaders don't consider students from the university as engineers, for them they should have come from an engineer school. Instead they are only Bac+5 with no title. But I don't think so, even though they are often more theorical (theoretical?) than practical, since the education at university rarely offers hands-on exercices, or training period in a company.

As for subject choosing. I see in american university one can chosse what course to follow, and fill his timetable accordingly. Here in France, the school or university choose the timetable for its students, keeping only few time-areas sometimes to get optional subject (2nd foreign languages mainly).

Marina

PS: I'm glad we have an interesting conversation here...

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Originally posted by Marina Vaillant
PS: I'm glad we have an interesting conversation here...

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Me too, this is getting much more interesting after each post. I'd like people from other countries to explain how it works out there. You don't have quite often the opportunity to learn this kind of things, and they are really interesting. :)

I have said that our Universities are free. But If U failed on exams, U can go for paid education at those Universities. It's cost 600-1500$/year (and it is Govermental Univ.) and it is high than 450 euro as was said above. And it is really expensive for my country, because of very low average salary here (near 100-150$). Also we have enough foreign students, especially from Asia countries (Leban, Syria, China) and from South America. Education for them is paid, something near 3000$/year.

We have engineer title only after University (5 years). There are some special technicums (3 year).

Elrond! Your current post count is 888!!!!!!!! :D:D:D

Anyway, our Universities costs a lot a lot more than the universities you folks mention, for some reason. At least several thousand dollars per month in Singapore dollars.(S$3000 - S$6500)
In US/Euro, this would be roughly somewhat around 2700 - 3800 Euros/US dollars per year. That's why. :cool::cool::cool:

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Originally posted by Xeon
Anyway, our Universities costs a lot a lot more than the universities you folks mention, for some reason.

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Usually:

1. The state ain't got enough money.
2. The state does not want money to get spend on social purposes. Do they have lousy republicans also in Singapore? :D

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Originally posted by Xeon
That's why. :cool::cool::cool:

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You choose your smilies rather strangely. I would not find this 'cool'. This would be more appropriate : :(, perhaps in combination with lots of :mad:.

That's why what, Xeon ???

It is said that in the US, parents often borrow money against their house to pay education to their kids. It's too expensive I think!
Education should not be more expensive that what a student can buy by working 2 days a week!

By the way, in Sweden (not mentionned for a while), students often work several years in between their years of school. So it's often you see students of 30-33 years old!
I wonder how they sell themselve to companies before a certain level of education.

Marina

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Originally posted by Marina Vaillant
That's why what, Xeon ???

It is said that in the US, parents often borrow money against their house to pay education to their kids. It's too expensive I think!
Education should not be more expensive that what a student can buy by working 2 days a week!

By the way, in Sweden (not mentionned for a while), students often work several years in between their years of school. So it's often you see students of 30-33 years old!
I wonder how they sell themselve to companies before a certain level of education.

Marina

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Yes, you're completely right!

Another question: in my company I (or any employee) can receive a grant to study, but not all companies in Spain are equals. Do your companies do the same?

I studied in the UK and there education is not free anymore as well. When I started I didn't have to pay anything (since I'm a European resident) and so had my four years of education paid by the british government (thank you Tony if you read this ;) ). But in my third year, they introduced a fee of 1000 pounds per year.

The british university system is quite complicated, since it matters a LOT at which university you studied. The same degree from one university might be 'worthless' while it is highly regarded from a different university.

The system in Britain is:
3 years : Bsc or BA (Bachelor of Science / Bachelor of Arts)
4 years : Msci (Master of Science)
3 years Bsc/BA + 1 year Msc/MA : Master, but you have to pay for the extra year.
4 years Bsc (with a year in industry)

To do a PhD, it's usually 3 years, but more commonly 3 1/2 to 4 years. Some people do preparational studies of 1 year in a place like Cambridge where they call it Part III. You can do a PhD directly after doing a 3 year Bsc/BA, but it's hard (i.e. you have to be good and work a lot).

The system in Scotland is different again. There a usual Bsc/BA takes 4 years and there are quite a few other difference.

As for me, I did a four year Msci. It's definitely the cheapest option, since I didn't have to pay any fees at all.

As Marina said about subject-choosing in the states, that system is quite alike the one in Britain. It's not quite as free as in the US, but you can still choose a lot. In my course I usually had 4 lecture courses in a term which I chose from about 7 in the first years and in the last year I had a choice of about 30 courses each term. This leads to really small classes, which is great. In a few of the courses in my last year, we were 5 to 8 students with the professor, so there was a lot of dialog.

And no, my company does not pay for any further studying I do, but well...

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I studied in the UK and there education is not free anymore as well. When I started I didn't have to pay anything (since I'm a European resident) and so had my four years of education paid by the british government (thank you Tony if you read this ). But in my third year, they introduced a fee of 1000 pounds per year.

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Yves, please, can U explain me what does mean "European resident" in this case?
And at what University U was studing?
___________
Ohh, Yves, and if for the time when U will be reading this message U didn't see "code war" thread, visit it.
May be it will be interesting for U :)