College or No College :: Future

There are people who have a Ph. D. and are ignorant and idiots.
There are people who don't have a degree, yet are quite aware of their surroundings and quite skillful.

A degree will not change a person.

But as a "passport" a diploma (or a couple of diploma ;) ) is the best tool you can get that differentiates yourself from "The Others (tm)".

Don't think you'll be a better person because you have a diploma (or not). A diploma just asserts what you've accomplished. That's all, nothing less, nothing more.

People will still eventually judge you by your work, no matter what.

Words cannot describe how much this statement brightens my spirit. If everyone thinks like that then college *degree* would be an option instead of a necessity for professionals.

"Don't think you'll be a better person because you have a diploma (or not). A diploma just asserts what you've accomplished. That's all, nothing less, nothing more. "

Kuphryn

I never went to college. Didn't have the need to. But I did get lucky starting off at a great company. This was years ago. I've never been turned down because I don't have a degree. People look at my experience which is quite varied and the companies I've worked for and what I have accomplished. If your almost done with college I say keep going. If I were to interview you it would concern me that you started something but didn't finish it.

As far as the comment about salary and degrees. I've never experienced that. I've been making more money than my degree'd counterparts since 95. Not that I care what anyone makes, it's all about if I feel I'm being compensated fairly. I'm probably just lucky. But I've hired quite a few people that don't have degrees. My only requirement is that the person is sharp, learns fast and won't be bothering me every second with the same question. I'd rather have that than a degreed person that doesn't have a clue. Mostly if I hire someone fresh outta college I tell them to forget everything they have learned and show them how things really work. Colleges IMHO are so far behind the real world trends that sometimes it does more damage than good.

One day I'll go to college and get my degree. I'll presumably get to skip alot of computer related classes due to my experience. But I'd be more looking forward to refreshing my math/english skills.

One thing I notice that is different from myself and degree'd indiviuals is I think very differently than they do. It seems that alot of people coming out of college don't think outside the box. But that's just my personal experience. I'm not saying I'm better than anyone. Indiviuals are individuals.

So stay in college or at least go part-time and get some real world skills working for some company. Companies are real flexable these days with continuing education.

Anyways that's my 2 cents.

Okay. Thanks.

I believe you are correct about employers accepting part-time college students.

You mentioned that newly graduated students not thinking of of the box. Can you elaborate on what you meant?

Kuphryn

That's a tuff one to answer. I guess I mean they seem so structured and not as creative. Alot of times tenative. Take the bull by the horns or as they do in montana...testicles.


You say tomato, they say tomoto. I say ketchup.

You brought up a very interesting topic reflecting on college "structured" versus "street" experience. Believe there are multiple ways to "succeed" is whatever we do. In general, there are two ways paralleled to the two concepts I mentioned.

To this day, I do not understand which concept is better. Maybe none is best. Maybe they are all the same.

For example, should we use thousands of years of research to know that fire is hot? On the other hand, another way to find out fire is hot take less than a second via experiment and gain experience.

I just do not know!

Kuphryn

Yea. There have been times where a little structure would have helped me out in coding, bug hunting. But there are times when because of my 'street experience' (as you call it) I've resolved issues far faster than a structured person would have. So there are pro's and con's to both sides. But then I have the luxury of going to school when I choose. I wouldn't advise anyone to try and get a entry level position today without a degree. It was easier IMHO back in the early 90's when I got my break.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Mick_2002
That's a tuff one to answer. I guess I mean they seem so structured and not as creative. Alot of times tenative. Take the bull by the horns or as they do in montana...testicles.

You say tomato, they say tomoto. I say ketchup.

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But this has nothing to do with the fact that they went to college or not. I've seen both type of persons having the same character traits as you describe, both from colleges. It has to do with the type of "creativity" both have. Some have a "scientific" approach to creativity, others have an "exploratory" approach. Both have advantages and disadvantages. It is true that people that are college drop outs tend to have the "exploratory" approach as the other one didn't fit them, but it is not a clear cut between college and the character traits your observe.

There are different ways to express creativity.

Anyway, that's from my experience.

Yea that's why I said "But that's just my personal experience" ;) In my original post that prompted his question.

Also, faster is not always better.

Faster means faster access to market, but it usually also means bad coding and high maintenance costs.

Whereas the slower more structured approach might take longer, but it usually means better design and reduced maintenance costs.

Exploratory creativity tends to be faster, although it is NOT always the case, in which case you really lost a lot. You take a lot of time and the code is crap.

Structured creativity is slower, but it is an iterative process of trying to find the right solution before beginning to code.

I tend to prefer structured creativity. But emotions get in the way sometimes and you end up exploring a lot anyways.

BTW, these two character traits are what I believe the big challenges in the IT related companies. Both approach are sometimes very far apart and it can lead to tension between colleagues. Lots of arguments, lots of hair pulling.

I know. I've been there :)

Faster is sometimes better, slower is sometimes not ;) I think it's a matter of a individuals strengths. I can design fast and code fast when needed. I doesn't mean the code has been designed bad or buggy. That's what functional verification testing/unit testing is all about. Anything I release is zero defect. I can't recall a time in 12 years that any of my code has had a bug reported on it. It must be me lucky charms.

I do agree with the tension part stemming from two different philosophical approaches. Been there done that. But I'm not the one pulling the hair out (yea I still got all mine) :)

You are right.

Unit testing can prevent common errors and defects.

However, it doesn't address design issues.

Which is the biggest problem down the road.

I'm not saying fast programmers are bad. I'm just raising a flag, because usually, it means they haven't thought out their solution.

;)

Yea I'd say a middle ground is the best. Now for design issues. That's where your peers come in. Getting into the habit of reviewing other peoples designs and code and having yours reviewed by other fellow developers reduces the chances of a faulty design getting out. People always *groan* when I talk about that. I really don't understand that. The goal is to make the best product you can.

you can always look for Summer internships which would give you real project experience for real applications. As for boring school life, I recommend getting a programming related job during the semester. I know it can be done cause I know somebody who's doing it right now, but it is really very hard to find a compatible job (but probably not in big colleges .. mine college isn't big).

anyway, I'm also a student planning to graduate slightly later on, May 2004. Right now I'm trying to find internship for Summer 2003. Can I post my resume here to get review or something ? Any body can recommend a good place to find internship positions ? Thanks.

-Nik

I have full confidence in my abilities as a programmer even without a college degree. I feel uncertained because of the fact that I do not like to deal with people. Please understand I am not talking about friends. I believe there is a time for fun and a time to get the job done. The two do not mix. In summation, I have trouble "communicating" with employers. Or should I say "selling myself?" I could work anywhere and company status is not important. I would prefer they leave me alone in my own room or a room with a few other dedicated real programmers.

Kuphryn