programming jobs without degree

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Originally Posted by Max Peck

That's a pretty broad and sweeping statement. Suggest you tone it down a bit.

I suffer no inferiority complex myself, and I'll keep my right hand, thanks. I just suffer from 35+ years of industry experience. No one asks me about a degree when they see my rap sheet. Ask any of the companies I've worked for if they give a rip whether or not I have a "sheepskin".

On the other hand, I have met a number of "degreed" and "certified" individuals who couldn't code their way out of a wet bag. They're real good at passing tests but when it comes down to hitting a hard deadline with a deliverable ...

Yes, in a mature market, a degree will bubble a resume up a little higher in the pile with individuals of the same age and experience but it will NOT supplant hard industry experience.

Be careful when you generalize like this, please.

-Max

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This is the typical "just look at me" defensive response you usually get from people with the kind of inferiority complex I was talking about.

What you don't seem to understand is that your individual experience is pretty much uninteresting for anyone who's contemplating a degree. That kind of life defining decision should be based on generalization and not on the fate of specific individuals. And all statistical evidence is pointing in the same direction. With a degree you're much more likely to have a satisfying career as programmer than without one.

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Originally Posted by nuzzle

With a degree you're much more likely to have a satisfying career as programmer than without one.

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Nobody said anything different. What I said based on 28 years in the business, if I have a need and I have two candidates, one with a degree and no experience, and one with no degree and several years of relevant experience, I'd pick the guy with the experience. I can also see Max's point of view that once you've established yourself, the degree also becomes less important. Starting out a degree will open doors, and in some bigger companies it's a requirement and it certainly isn't going to hurt you.

Personally, I got my first programming job in 1983. I didn't get my bachelor's degree until 1997, so I had a good 14 year run without a degree. I got my BS just as a matter of pride, then went on and got a MS and an MBA just to do it. So I'm speaking as somebody who's had a good career with no degree and well degreed, and no insecurities either way.

Your premise that people without a degree use that as an excuse to justify insecurities is not only rude, it's not accurate.

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Originally Posted by Feoggou

I've read from the link a large list of patterns. does this "firm knowledge of ... design patterns" means learning all patterns?

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You never really learn a pattern until you've tried using it, so no, I wouldn't say you need to have in-depth knowledge of all patterns.

What is important is that you know what design patterns are, where to look them up when you encounter documentation saying that a particular pattern is being used, and have a basic grasp of what problems some of the more popular patterns are intended to solve.

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Originally Posted by GCDEF

Nobody said anything different. What I said based on 28 years in the business, if I have a need and I have two candidates, one with a degree and no experience, and one with no degree and several years of relevant experience, I'd pick the guy with the experience. I can also see Max's point of view that once you've established yourself, the degree also becomes less important. Starting out a degree will open doors, and in some bigger companies it's a requirement and it certainly isn't going to hurt you.

Personally, I got my first programming job in 1983. I didn't get my bachelor's degree until 1997, so I had a good 14 year run without a degree. I got my BS just as a matter of pride, then went on and got a MS and an MBA just to do it. So I'm speaking as somebody who's had a good career with no degree and well degreed, and no insecurities either way.

Your premise that people without a degree use that as an excuse to justify insecurities is not only rude, it's not accurate.

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Yet another "look at me" defensive post. No I don't know if you have been driven by insecurity and it doesn't matter, that's my point. The statistical outcome matters, not the individual.

To any young person. You don't have to listen to pompous deliberations as to whether someone would prefer to employ a graduate or a non-graduate under various scenarios. And you don't have to listen to boring life-stories about how someone fared so well or so bad with or without a degree. It's irrelevant.

The only thing you need to know is that statistically a degree will firmly turn the Rota Fortunae in your favour. So go get a degree if you have the chance.

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Originally Posted by nuzzle

Yet another "look at me" defensive post. No I don't know if you have been driven by insecurity and it doesn't matter, that's my point. The statistical outcome matters, not the individual.

To any young person. You don't have to listen to pompous deliberations as to whether someone would prefer to employ a graduate or a non-graduate under various scenarios. And you don't have to listen to boring life-stories about how someone fared so well or so bad with or without a degree. It's irrelevant.

The only thing you need to know is that statistically a degree will firmly turn the Rota Fortunae in your favour. So go get a degree if you have the chance.

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You're not paying any attention at all to what anybody is saying, and you're being extremely rude and arrogant in the process. :thumbd: I don't see the need for an attitude like that. You can make your point without berating other posters. Name calling and insults aren't appropriate here.

I have read some posts in this thread and I confirm it myself that nothing is related to me and my business! I post just to tell everyone that I am not going to poke my nose in.

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Originally Posted by GCDEF

You're not paying any attention at all to what anybody is saying, and you're being extremely rude and arrogant in the process. :thumbd: I don't see the need for an attitude like that. You can make your point without berating other posters. Name calling and insults aren't appropriate here.

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Who's not paying attention?

My main point is that I consider individual outcomes completely irrelevant for anyone who's trying to decide whether to pursue a university education. If you find it rude that I'm not exactly jumping for joy over yet another life story it's your problem.

Instead explain what you think drives non-graduates who constantly are badmouthing higher education in general and graduates in particular. I think it's insecurity. If you think it's something else it would be interesting to know what?

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Originally Posted by nuzzle

Who's not paying attention?

My main point is that I consider individual outcomes completely irrelevant for anyone who's trying to decide whether to pursue a university education. If you find it rude that I'm not exactly jumping for joy over yet another life story it's your problem.

Instead explain what you think drives non-gradauates who constantly are badmouthing higher education in general and graduates in particular. I think it's insecurity. If you think it's something else it would be interesting to know what?

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The fact that you're posting this shows that you're ignoring what's being said. I've said it several times but I'll say it again although I don't see the point. Nobody said don't get an education. All anybody said is that given a candidate with no experience and a degree, or no degree and relevant experience, the experienced one is more likely to get hired. The other point was that as your resume gets longer, the degree gets less important. I would welcome you to point out the post where anybody said an education isn't worth getting.

Nobody is arguing against education. I don't know why you keep pretending anybody is. I don't know why you feel the need to degrade those of us with decades of experience in the field. The two of us making that point that you seem to be railing against both have degrees anyway, so it's not some kind of bogus justification on our part. You say it's insecurity on the part of those without degrees. I have two master's degrees. That kind of blows holes in your theory doesn't it, and that's the only reason I mention them.

You really have been very rude and condescending and should rethink your attitude. At least respond to what's being said, not to your straw man.

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Originally Posted by nuzzle

This is the typical "just look at me" defensive response you usually get from people with the kind of inferiority complex I was talking about.

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OK, you're entitled to your opinion. :-)

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With a degree you're much more likely to have a satisfying career as programmer than without one.

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OK, if you say so. I've worked at this for 35 years and still don't look at my watch. If that isn't satisfaction I don't know what is. However you seem to be painting yourself as the expert here so we'll just leave it at that.

-Max :D

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Originally Posted by GCDEF

Your premise that people without a degree use that as an excuse to justify insecurities is not only rude, it's not accurate.

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Thank you most kindly, sir. I couldn't agree more.

I know of few individuals around me who enjoy what they do for a living anywhere near as much as I do. I don't feel like I've worked a day in 35 years. Now if that ain't satisfaction I don't know what is!

-Max :D

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Originally Posted by nuzzle

If you think it's something else it would be interesting to know what?

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I'll tell you what it is, smarty. It's called "critical thinking". The "template" tells you "go to college, get good job". Yeah, well I'm sorry to bust your bubble but you're not only rude, you're just plain wrong to paint it with as wide a brush as you are.

Guess Bill Gates needs to go back to college and finish up his degree to get "satisfying" jobs, eh?

I'm through with this thread. I don't need to put up with wet-behind-the-ears "experts". As was said, you're just not listening. Got to go - I've got a six-figure salary to keep earning. I'll figure out whether or not a lack of degree makes me dissatisfied later! ;-)

BTW ... stuff the statistics. If I lived my life by them I'd be divorced by now and living on the street since I don't have a degree.

-Max

nuzzle can have that effect on people.

If you are so satisfied with your job, why do you feel the need to jump into the discussion and convince others of how good you have it?

Fact in hand, having a degree makes having a job, and evolving, easier. It is a statistical fact. Unless you are actively recommending against having a degree, I don't see what your point is.

Also, while I'm sure you've been very happy about your 35+ years of experience, and you are now a confirmed programmer, I'm sure you can also realize that the job market has evolved. When you come in for an interview (if you're even selected), and are going against 10+ other interviewees, you want to be the one with the highest degree (and you'd have to be stupid to think otherwise).

Having a degree guarantees a certain level of knowledge, as opposed to skill. There is always a great debate between having skill and knowledge. The thing is that both are not exclusive. You can be both skilled and have a degree.

For more reading on the subject:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/11...d_more_skills/

There's a fairly long comment thread on the article, with a wide mix of opinions about the importance of a CS degree.

For what is worth, my opinion is that a degree is definitely useful, but not essential, and doesn't have to be in Computer Science. However I do have to say that the best programmers I have employed have had a CS degree. For recent graduates, e.g. in the last 10 years, it's confirms that they were interested in computing from an early age, and had the skill to get onto and through a degree program.

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Originally Posted by nuzzle

This is the typical "just look at me" defensive response you usually get from people with the kind of inferiority complex I was talking about.

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Why on earth do you think that a "I don't have a degree but nobody asks me about it because I have so much real world experience" comment implies an "inferiority complex"? It's just a statement of fact.
By that argument, I could maybe infer that your attitude is down to the "typical superiority complex" that degree holders suffer from?
(I don't believe that either)

Related to this debate, long term members of this forum will no doubt have come to the conclusion that the quality of teaching of C++ in colleges is at most fair to poor. This is not a fact that goes unnoticed by employers, as those of us with long term experience in the industry often take part in the interview process, either face to face or reviewing answers. My view when reviewing a CS graduate interviewee is that, yes, they may have a good grasp of computer science theory, probably considerably more than me, but what we actually need is a person who can design good, bug free, maintainable code. A person who can come up with an innovative solution to a problem that has possibly never been solved before. A person that is self motivated to learn new things and how to apply them. Someone, when presented with a problem that hasn't cropped up before, doesn't just sit there looking baffled.

One recent interviewee had a degree and a masters degree. His mathematics skills were evident in the jobs he had previously.
When asked to sketch out a class and basic algorithm for finding the mean and maximum in a region of an image, he declined to do so!

Another claimed Ada and some C++, when asked to do the same, in Ada if he preferred, totally failed to get even started.

Maybe the intelligent but introverted and unimaginative CS degree graduate that nuzzle seemed to describe will get a reasonable job as a coding drudge in a large corporation, but that's not the sort of people that small engineering/software companies that I have worked for in the past 30 years actually need.

From my experience, having a CS degree does not guarantee these qualities, it appears to be more down to the character of the individual.

I think this thread will continue long..

A lot of people in this thread seem to be forgetting the current job climate. Can you be a very good programmer without a degree? Of course. Are you likely to get a programming job at the moment without a degree and with no prior programming experience on your resume? Probably not, unless you personally know someone at the company to get your foot in the door and/or you happen to be in an area with a significant shortage of programmers.

Otherwise, most job openings at the moment are swamped with applicants and one of the first filters that HR usually applies to a stack of resumes is "do they have a degree?".

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Originally Posted by Speedo

, most job openings at the moment are swamped with applicants

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I wish! We've been advertising for weeks and only had three CVs that even came close to the requirements. All were completely unsuitable (see my previous post).
Now if we were creating enterprise Java apps or mobile phones, the in-pile would be overflowing.

This comment might be a little off-topic, but I can think of, indeed I knew and worked with, a non-degreed person working as a mathematician and an engineer, and he proved himself a giant in his particular field.

Hap worked as an acoustics design engineer, designing circuitry (and developing the mathematical underpinnings) of a variety of sonar hydrophones and associated receivers.

His boss had worked at MIT's Radiation Laboratory during the Second World War and had several patents for radar equipment under his belt, but at General Instrument, Harold adapted a technology used almost exclusively by radioastronomers at the time. Harold adapted that technology to the field of sonar and thus was born the 'crossed fan-beam' technology which is the foundation of today's multi-beam sonars.

In 1984, Japanese scientists used a descendant of their pioneering work to chart the Challenger Deep, the deepest known spot of all the world's oceans (http://www.gebco.net/about_us/gebco_...test_depth.pdf)

Wanna know a little more about these two technological giants ?
1. Visit Amazon.com and in the search bar at the top of the page enter "Mapping the Deep"
2. on the left side of the page, see the text box labeled ''search inside this book" - enter "Farr" and click 'GO'
3. Click on the first result: "page 62 Farr and by an uncredentialed ..."
4. You're there ! One scrolls down the page by placing the cursor in the center page and "pulling" the page up or down. One turns the page by clicking on the arrow-shaped tab on the side of the page.

it's a fascinating read.

As someone mentioned in a much earlier post - there is the occasional genius, and Hap was certainly that. A little feisty (I remember that he once, after I screwed up a calculation, asked "Boy! Where'd you go to school ?"), but make no mistake about it, he was brilliant, degree or not ... and very forgiving (he permitted me to continue working for him even after having discovered that I screwed up the calculation).

As someone who is getting a degree in computer science, I can definitely say that having a degree will help. But, I also can see this from the employer's point of view. College applicant with bachelors and one or two internships vs guy with no education but 10 years of experience. If I were in his shoes, I would probably go for the guy with the experience. I've been at my current internship for a few months and feel I have learned quite a bit about how things work. If I tack on another 9-10 years of experience, I'd imagine I'd be a much better programmer.

Ultimately I would say if you are thinking about entering the field, you might as well have some degree. It will at least show you had the intelligence to learn the concepts. I don't really see an employer hiring someone with no professional experience or degree, especially in this day and age.

It's also worthwhile to note that a lot of employers will offer training, either internally or externally; of which I've taken advantage of over the years, especially for getting up to speed with modern C++ techniques.

Thats true, my company occasionally sends engineers to training for lots of different things from databases to highly parallel programming.

We don't need no education da na na da na na na we don't need no thought control... *bobs head*

I think programming is an advisable way that can help you earn cash and there are also several sites that offer good freelance programming job that suit on you.

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