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Eating there is impossible if you dont have a McDonalds. But Guiness and Whiskey make that all more than good!!!!Quote:
From Elrond: They are not exactly good at cooking, and having been a poor country for a long time, they were mainly eating fish and potatoes .... Or may be the dish around would be Guiness.
That's about where it was when I arrived. It took me a long time to catch up. You've probably missed a few interesting posts in the last 100... :D:DQuote:
Originally posted by Ungi
Fascinating, didnt have a look in this thread for about a week. And it got bigger than I thought!! I must say I am to lazy to read all the post on the last X pages you wrote... My last view was below 1000 posts (about 960)... Congratulations!!
And a few posts of no interest as well :rolleyes:
You are wrong. You can eat well in Ireland if you want. They have chinese, indian, greek, spanish and french restaurants. It's pretty expensive as well.Quote:
Originally posted by Ungi
Eating there is impossible if you dont have a McDonalds. But Guiness and Whiskey make that all more than good!!!!
And 7 French. That's a big, big, big improvement given the way it started.Quote:
Originally posted by Ungi
AND THERE ARE 9 AUSTRIANS IN THIS FORUM!!!
And finally the number of 500 votes was not as impossible as I thought, as we are now getting really close to it. We are over 90%.
I meant irish food (Is Mac irish??)!!!!!!Quote:
From Elrond: You can eat well in Ireland if you want. They have chinese, indian, greek, spanish and french restaurants.
Like Austrian Schweinsbraten. (dont know whats in English) or Wiener Schnitzl.....
I don't know about Ireland, but stuff like Haggis, black pudding etc... black pudding is actually kind of nice, but haggis :rolleyes:
Back on the AI thing.
I don't think that it would be too hard for humans to play against a learning AI. It is true that the AI can give 10 orders in a second, but the human constraints can also be placed on the AI. The AIs are pretty good, but that is mostly because they cheat. They have information about more things than the human player does. Sometimes they even have more resources to start out with. The example in Warcraft is that they can see parts of the map which you don't see. They locate neutral monsters without exploring the map.
Wow, i'm hungry.
To continue Elrond's list, we have also:
Poule au pot, Escalope Ã* la Normande, Pot-au-feu,
Rillette du Mans :D , Poulet/frites...and many many more...
ahah...
A friend of mine told me that in Ireland they fried everything...even pizzas !!?? is that true ?
Not quite true. They boil a lot of things as well, including good beef that is much better grilled. And I've never seen a boiled or fried pizza so far, even if I have seen pizza with fried toppings.Quote:
Originally posted by Sylvain
Wow, i'm hungry.
To continue Elrond's list, we have also:
Poule au pot, Escalope Ã* la Normande, Pot-au-feu,
Rillette du Mans :D , Poulet/frites...and many many more...
ahah...
A friend of mine told me that in Ireland they fried everything...even pizzas !!?? is that true ?
Ungi:
There's a few Mac in Ireland, but I think it's mainly Scottish. In Ireland you will find more " O' ".
Yves M:
That's exactly what I said, if you have a good learning AI against you, it would require to be slowed to have their actions matching human speed (time we need to move the mouse or type commands on the keyboard...).
A definition soem AI guru gave us on the Uni was that a system is called to have AI if it seems to behave intelligently. That does not necessarily mean that the system is capable of learning. One could of course argue on this definition (the guy also agreed on this point).Quote:
Originally posted by Yves M
Back on the AI thing.
I don't think that it would be too hard for humans to play against a learning AI. It is true that the AI can give 10 orders in a second, but the human constraints can also be placed on the AI. The AIs are pretty good, but that is mostly because they cheat. They have information about more things than the human player does. Sometimes they even have more resources to start out with. The example in Warcraft is that they can see parts of the map which you don't see. They locate neutral monsters without exploring the map.
Hehehe... Beer!!! What's U need more???;) :D
MCDonalds - is not eat.
I like our national food dishes :cool: , not semis .
Yves M:
About games and AI.
Maybe the computer does not have more informations that the human can have, but it has a "check list" to read every minutes ,for example , to check if it doesn't forget anything like units which don't do anythink or money which ave to be spend whithout waiting...
So maybe we play the game without cheats, but the computer is faster to give orders and it doesn't forget anything.
But may be not.
I think you're right where you're saying that it knows where are located some places or some sprites. Because sometimes with a friend, we play StarCraft agaisnt the computer. And when it start the first attack, it's always against the one who have less soldiers or less defend towers...and moreover it always know the shorter way to our bases.
ahah. that's just a game.
Sylvain.
This is true, in StarCraft, computer know always exactly what are the forces you have, you can try it. Just create a lot of transport (or use Zerg with Overlord) and load ALL your units in the transport, you'll see, the computer will tell "WOW, 0 units in the bases, let's attack!", he he, wait for him and unload... :)Quote:
Originally posted by Sylvain
I think you're right where you're saying that it knows where are located some places or some sprites. Because sometimes with a friend, we play StarCraft agaisnt the computer. And when it start the first attack, it's always against the one who have less soldiers or less defend towers...and moreover it always know the shorter way to our bases.
But ignoring what you should not know is also part of the AI. A good AI should not know your position, but should be able to guess and should scout to know where you are. I don't know how they did that in WarCraft 3, but the AI always know where you are and always attack the less defended player.
But, again on WarCraft 3, any "intermediate players" will know the map, so will know where are all gold mines and Creeps, so in that case, computer knowing where to creep is OK.
I've always wonder why it is like that, why they don't create instance of what the computer knows instead of using the reality. The AI scouting is just a bluff, programmer make the AI scout for nothing, just so we think it serves something... :)
The fact that the computer can react quicker and give more command than human is also a part of the AI. It can be slowed or NOT, since you are playing again computer, you know computer should have an advantage. It a matter of testing and tweaking, a too strong AI will never loose, and a too stupid will be bored after a while...
But the AI of today (WC3...) is pretty good. The AI can organise attack, flee if outrun, create a "settle place" where he'll regroup his troup before attacking, units move together (that is Path movement AI), AI can change his strategy following what you do, etc.
You know, a perfect AI will, when a battle start, know exactly the result of the battle using calculation, and then will assign each unit the proper command, thus always winning an human, so let's create the perfect AI, and then after lower his power so it is less intelligent :D
JeffB
So if you already have been discussing about computer AI.
But what about man intelligence. On what it based : knowledges, experience, etc.
And what about intuition. It's not always base on cited above things? But sometimes it's helps. I hear about people who was saved in last moment from airplans disasters, because they felt something before race and didn't fly on it.
What is it? :confused:
I think now we don't know enough about self (people), about possibility of our brain...
If we have fun with games, then it doesn't matter if AI is good or not.
Ahah.
Bubble Bobbles will be always Bubble Bobbles, for those who know it.
And Tetris will always be Tetris. :cool: :D :pQuote:
Originally posted by Sylvain
If we have fun with games, then it doesn't matter if AI is good or not.
Ahah.
Bubble Bobbles will be always Bubble Bobbles, for those who know it.
WC3 is pretty good I have to agree. But it is still doing some "stupid" actions, which should really have been taken care of.Quote:
But the AI of today (WC3...) is pretty good. The AI can organise attack, flee if outrun, create a "settle place" where he'll regroup his troup before attacking, units move together (that is Path movement AI), AI can change his strategy following what you do, etc.
For example, your main army meets with the computer's main army and you win the battle. Then many times the computer will start producing units and sending them directly one by one against your whole group. This is definitely not a good idea.
And then again that same example with the computer trying to attack a flying dragon when it only has units that can attack ground units.
One thing I don't like is the fact that it knows directly where you have settled and will attack you there. In a three-way game against two computers you have to wait until at least some computer player has set up a second base or your second base will get attacked by both computers.
I think this is a pity, since winning against the AI then relies on you knowing the AI's tricks and outtrick it. Since it doesn't learn or improve, it will never change its tricks and so the game loses interest.
Granted, this is fair enough. If you have played the same map a few times, you will also have all this prior knowledge about the creeps.Quote:
But, again on WarCraft 3, any "intermediate players" will know the map, so will know where are all gold mines and Creeps, so in that case, computer knowing where to creep is OK.
I don't think that it's possible to do this unless the AI is cheating too massively. Take for example Master of Orion II. When played in the impossible mode, the AI gets more money, doesn't attack other AI players and soon everybody will be against you. It cheats on a massive scale, but it's still not impossible to win.Quote:
a too strong AI will never loose
The main reason I'd like to see a learning AI is that it games would not become repetitive. For example in WC3, after you have played a map a few times, you'll be able to win almost every time, since you'll know how the AI reacts in this particular map (replays are SO insightful ;)). There are a lot of advanced tactics the AI will never be able to use. If it did use them in the first place, the game would be too hard for a beginner, but there is nothing wrong with matching its "intelligence" to yours.
Well, not entirely, a game with a good AI will provide more fun in the long run ;)Quote:
Originally posted by Sylvain
If we have fun with games, then it doesn't matter if AI is good or not.
Ahah.
Bubble Bobbles will be always Bubble Bobbles, for those who know it.
I don't like the idea that in order to win against an AI you just have to figure out once what its weak points are and then continue using the same tricks.
Yeah, that is the demonstration that AI programming is hard and also that Blizzard wanted Warcraft 3 to be more multiplayer than single player (multiplayer game are a slow down for AI advancement ;) )Quote:
Originally posted by Yves M
WC3 is pretty good I have to agree. But it is still doing some "stupid" actions, which should really have been taken care of.
That is extremely stupid. Programmers must have code something like "StartMode(SUICIDAL_TACTIC)" and have forget to stop it, it shows a lack in the AI :), it has happens to me a couple of time and it makes me in ?&?%&$ when I look at the replay and see that the computer send one unit at the time, but do not keep some in his base...Quote:
Originally posted by Yves M
For example, your main army meets with the computer's main army and you win the battle. Then many times the computer will start producing units and sending them directly one by one against your whole group. This is definitely not a good idea.
I think it will be resolved in the 1.03 patch. Its very annoying since it give you a big advantage, the computer DO NOT retreat and loses many units... :(Quote:
Originally posted by Yves M
And then again that same example with the computer trying to attack a flying dragon when it only has units that can attack ground units.
Agree, can't say it better :D, but at the same time, you can "avoid" using these tricks, but the tentation is hard to resist, since we are playing against the same computer (you know, the same "box") for years and we definitively want our revenge.Quote:
Originally posted by Yves M
I think this is a pity, since winning against the AI then relies on you knowing the AI's tricks and outtrick it. Since it doesn't learn or improve, it will never change its tricks and so the game loses interest.
He wins me at chess, I win him at WarCraft 3 - Jeffb
They also do that in many games, like in StarCraft campaign. The computer is granted free uniis and money just to have a chance to beat you, but is still stupid and lose ;). But an AI that can calculated all the result of every thing he does will result in a WarCraf3 players that build every thing at the right moment, in the right orders, at the right place, etc. Like a Chees Move is calculated, each Computer chess move is "the best possible" using different evaluation: Pieces gained, board control, ...Quote:
Originally posted by Yves M
I don't think that it's possible to do this unless the AI is cheating too massively. Take for example Master of Orion II. When played in the impossible mode, the AI gets more money, doesn't attack other AI players and soon everybody will be against you. It cheats on a massive scale, but it's still not impossible to win.
Yeah, and if you find any "leak" in the AI playing , then the AI, learning, will improve its play using your tactics, so you'll have to change or improve it better, thus becoming more and more a nerd! :DQuote:
Originally posted by Yves M
The main reason I'd like to see a learning AI is that it games would not become repetitive. For example in WC3, after you have played a map a few times, you'll be able to win almost every time, since you'll know how the AI reacts in this particular map (replays are SO insightful ;)). There are a lot of advanced tactics the AI will never be able to use. If it did use them in the first place, the game would be too hard for a beginner, but there is nothing wrong with matching its "intelligence" to yours.
JeffB
Oh yeah, Tetris is Tetris :D :DQuote:
Originally posted by Elrond
And Tetris will always be Tetris. :cool: :D :p
But OTOH, you know today you can play tetris one vs another in the same screen. You can play against the computer also (I think?) Anyway, never try it, but a good AI playing Tetris will be umbeatable (<--original word was imbattable :) )!! (Even with "speed - human tweaking" to ensure the computer cannot move quicker than an human)
Imagine, place all the pieces perfectly, never left a space for more than 5 moves, try to get the most points for its moves, do not have any limitation by the fact the game is speeded before level 25,... :) :D
JeffB
Much better than that. During my last year of studies we used to play it on our UNIX networks. We've been up to 6 or 7 to play against each other at the same time. And we could use AI as well to add more players. That was real fun. The AI was good enough, but a good player could usually beat it.Quote:
Originally posted by JeffB
Oh yeah, Tetris is Tetris :D :D
But OTOH, you know today you can play tetris one vs another in the same screen.
Another game I like about as much is Block Out, the 3D Tetris.
There is a lot of pretty little addictive funny little mind tricky games on yahoo. Each time I play one I think : "Yep, that the next game I'll program in VB...", but since I don't have time... :D ;)
Must been pretty interesting playing Tetris with so many players. My class was playing a strange little volleyball game (staring some kind of Blob), only two players thought ;)
JeffB -
True. Plus the computer has no measure of knowing that it is outnumbered and should not continue attacking some group of creeps.Quote:
I think it will be resolved in the 1.03 patch. Its very annoying since it give you a big advantage, the computer DO NOT retreat and loses many units...
I've made a custom map with 6 siege golems and a few level 10 dragons guarding a nice gold mine.
Once the computer has sent its first units to that mine, it will keep trying to attack the creeps guarding it, even though it doesn't have enough units.
It's interesting that most maps provided have a nice "ladder" of creep difficulty.
So the AI can go around and kill harder and harder creeps but there is no jump in difficulty.
A map with a single group of strong creeps will invariably lead to the quick destruction of the AI's forces.
A bit of a pity ;)
Hi all,
if we leave AI a little bit...warcraft and starcraft games are really pretty good i think. I've played many many times to Starcraft and i can see that there is no invincible weapons. Every weapons or constructions can be destroyed by another one from the ennemies. Even if you make a good line of watch towers to protect your bases, there is always a way to destruct them (with tanks for example or any weapons that can fire from far). That's cool. In that case, you cannot construct some buildings and say "ok, they're sure, i won't come back on them", we have always to be carreful...
But sometimes against computer, i don't know why, but if you create a good proctect line...it always come with one or more battle ships and will never cross the line...
- i hate electric dark templars -
even if i always take the protoss...
In Bubble, AI is very basic. Monsters just walk till there is no more way to go...and then they walk in the other direction. If they see you, they fire. And that's all. Flying monsters don't see where you are. They just fly till you kil them, or they kill you.Quote:
I don't like the idea that in order to win against an AI you just have to figure out once what its weak points are and then continue using the same tricks.
So, in that sort of games, it's not a question of AI. You always see the monsters and what they're going to do. So you have to be very fast, jump at the good moment, fire at the good moment. That's quite interresting too. i like it very much.
There is case sometimes that you don't know what's going to happen. When a monster falls for example. When it reachs the ground, you cannot know if it's going to walk on the left or on the right. Good luck. Ahah.
This is a game in which you have to learn levels each time you play...100 levels. very hard game.
I don't like War&StarCrafts and alikes. Give me UT2003. As far as AI is concerned, up to now all Unreal's contain very well noticable errors. The bots always seemed to know where you are in the first Unreal, in Unreal Tournament the bots could always pinpoint you to your exact location up to the millimeter when you where invisible. And in all versions the bots seem to know what is going on over their heads. Normal people look straight ahead and only occasionally look up, but in the game they seem to have very good notice of what is going on in the corners of their eyes. And in UT2003 the bots can effortlessly see through trees, which is impossible for you. I do not know how the AI works in Unreal, but it is certainly open for improvement.
Simon666:
Maybe not. Maybe the programmers did the AI like that to have strong bots. And by this way, you're become really good at the game, and you reach a point where you're a really good hardcore gamer. And if bots weren't "cheating", you'll say: "oh, it's too easy"...
Maybe not.
Ahah
I'm not a hardcore gamer. And I like the game. It's just that I noticed these small problems. In the first Unreal however, this was a major problem. And in some other games it can be too. I don't like that things are hard in a game, I just want to frag some people to let off some steam. I am not interested to like in some games have my head shot off with a single bullet by a sniper 500 metres away as I heard is the case in a WWII game which name I can't remember right now.
I don't like games much. I am playing seldom only some shooters,
like CS.
Simon I agree with U. I think that what U descripted about UT it's not real AI.
It's trickery mostly. For that I prefer to play with people, noy bots.
Yes it's difficult to play UT or Quake 3 at nightmare mode, but it's
only because bots has unreal marksmanship, etc... but not not of their strategy.
It's especcialy for CS, where U can even one win command of bots with high game level, with excellent marksmanship, but with bad strategy.
I think game AI in shooters it's strategy of bots mainly.
I don't remember any shooter AI to not be able to look thru wall and floor :D, They seem to aim their ennemy that is the other side of the door, and to not shot because the bullet cannot hit the target... so why aiming??
In Unreal Tournament, the computer was not really "thinking". To move, programmer must include "pathway" in the map so the bots can follow it. The pathway must pass near weapons and equipements in order to allow bot to have weapon. No "pathway" I think the bots just freeze and wait there, shotting anything in their range they can see. But there is still path finding AI, they must know the shortest path from A to B.
Also, in UT, bots knows exactly where are the items, and in how many times they will reappear (Thinking about Xan and that Armor ;)) He get to the armor at the exact same time the armor appear :)
It seems to be the same thing in UT2003 ;)
I have heard that Ghost Recon was having strong AI, not really true, the game's good, but the AI still aim their guns on wall because there is someone the other side.
JeffB
I've only played the demo. I am going to buy it I think. I think it would not be that much effort to program something to keep track of the closest walls and of the openings in them so the bots don't shoot against them in a more limited number of cases without program performance slowing down. But that is just a thought I guess.Quote:
It seems to be the same thing in UT2003
I don't play first person shooters so I can't really say much about them. Anyways, programming a real-time AI is pretty hard :/
Anyway, in shoot games like UT, Quake, Counter Strike, if you play against bots, it will always miss something, the human factor. For example, when i used to play Counter on the net i could play for hours...and sometimes i had to eat or drink something. During this time, my player was not moving and could be shot. That would be funny to include this kind of "aleas" in the AI.
Have you ever seen a bot which is a sniper in a shoot game ? Bots are always running, no ?
Fortunately, there is always players on the net, and there's no need to use bots...
That's true, an advanced AI concept for bots has to include behavioural models for them. So for example one bot tends to run frantically about every room and kill everyone in sight. Another one will play the sniper, still another one will wait behind doors etc. The possibilities are numerous, I'm sure we'll get there soon enough ;)
This is already done in Unreal Tournament. What is not realistic, is that if you set the bots to "inhuman" skill level, they actual are inhuman. :D They snipe you WHILE RUNNING. Now I can do this too to some extent, but not with such an accuracy. If I zoom in and run, I have to be careful not to fall into anything too, but the bots know where they are going and also know when to zoom out when someone is approaching outside of their zoomed scope.Quote:
Have you ever seen a bot which is a sniper in a shoot game ? Bots are always running, no ?
It would be nice to be able to see replays from the point of view of the computer and what it is actually seeing. This is a feature I really like in Warcraft :)
I've heard it is the replay possibility that really slowed down GTA3 on PC. So I think this is bad for performance (depends on who programs it too ;) ) and maybe that's why you won't find it in first person shooters. And of course because there has never been any demand for it. I did think the replay feature of Carmageddon was really cool.
True :/ Then again, instead of running Quake 3 at 150 frames per second you could just as well play it on 120 frames per second :p
The first game I played with nice replays was Driver. Oh, I used to love that game ;)
Warcraft 3 and StartCraft replays are little file and do not slow the game (blizzard do surely have good coders).
also, Ghost Recon has a replay features, and it is pretty interresting, but you can't look at the ennemy view ;)
For the shooters AI too smart for us, it is the same thing in Perfect Dark (for those who knows N64 games), at the better level, they shot you with two pistol from far far far away and do not miss you, all of that while walking backward, picking objects and shield, something turning corner, but the story say that these "Dark bots" are not human but human with implants and the like :)
UT2003 -> I've only played the demo TO (thanks to CodeGuru NewsLetter ;) )
JeffB
I think it would be interesting to know how the warcraft people did this, since the replay files are indeed much smaller than you'd expect.
For first person shooters, the AI can of course always be much better than you and that's easy to achieve. They will just never miss and always dodge your bullets ;)
It would VERY interesting, when I try to find a way to keep as much datas... I'm wondering if they just record "Player X : Select units in Area (10,10,100,100): MoveTo (500,500)", and just "regenerate" the replay, but each unit move always "the exact same manner", Blizzard surely got real "crack" to do such a features :) (appreciate from everyone BTW) :)Quote:
Originally posted by Yves M
I think it would be interesting to know how the warcraft people did this, since the replay files are indeed much smaller than you'd expect.
JeffB
That is probably the way they do it. It makes sense, since you can't seek to a random time in the replay.Quote:
I'm wondering if they just record "Player X : Select units in Area (10,10,100,100): MoveTo (500,500)", and just "regenerate" the replay
For those interested (Yves M. at less :)), the patch 1.03 is out:
Infos: http://www.warcraftiii.net/patches/patch01.shtml
Two things about AI:
- Each AI player can now be set to one of three different settings: Easy, Normal, and Insane.
- Allied AI will teleport to human allies' towns when the towns are under attack.
Cheers to Blizzard, that patch was waited a lot ;)
- Fixed a crash that could occur when the system date was set to > 2038.
Who have tested that!!!!!!!!! :D
JeffB
I'm back!
I'm glad to see that France has now 7 votes!
Marina
I thought you were dead. :D And Xeon seems to be also. Although he has posted already in other threads. Maybe he is kicking of from whatever stuff he was using. It must have been very heavy stuff too. :D He's probably going cold turkey, and I'm not referring to chicken chops. :pQuote:
I'm back!
Anyway, Marina, where were you?
Hi Marina, I hope you enjoyed your vacation :)
This is definitely nice :)Quote:
Allied AI will teleport to human allies' towns when the towns are under attack.
I'll get that patch tonight and try it out :)
Hi, Marina! :)
_____________________________________
And guys, you have been sinking into dotage, games are for kids :( :p
Welcome back! I started to think that we can open a (nearly-) men-only club here (as Irona was the only girl posting...):D . Did you have a nice vacation?Quote:
Originally posted by Marina Vaillant
I'm back!
I'm glad to see that France has now 7 votes!
Marina
Good morning,
Yeah, Driver is pretty cool. Really 70's. Ahah. When i used to play this game, i remenbered Starsky & Hutch.
The cheat modes were very cool too...the one in which no police cars can hurt you, or the super car which could go so faster that in San Francisco you could even fly, or bump other cars to throw them in the sky...ahahah.
What is the best game today, do you think, like Alone in the dark, Resident Evil ?
And Anime too ?Quote:
And guys, you have been sinking into dotage, games are for kids
wow wow wow...so we are kids...:)
No matter how old you are. If you like it, that's ok.
2 Sylvain and ALL:
Ok.
I have already said in other thread that
MAIN THING IS TO BE ( AND TO STAY ) YOUNGER ( AT HEART!
:)
So games.. hmm... why not? ;) :p
TETRIS - RULEZZZ FOREVER!!!
I even wrote my own clone, when I had been studying VC++.
:)