College or No College :: Future

We have created machines that deliver information in a kaleidoscope of formats (text, images, animations, video, sound, etc.).
Education is delivering this information to those who want to learn it.
Yet we still spend BILLIONS on constructing buildings for "students" to come to.
And we charge them ungodly amounts (at least in Amerika) for the "privilege".

Everything that schools now do, including the verifications of knowledge by exams, can be done on a computer. Interaction with knowledgable people for questions is simple. Presentations can be MUCH more intuitive with the use of proper multimedia (instead of those static whiteboards). And if you are motivated and can learn a course in three weeks instead of three months, its trivial to test. You can tailor your education precisely. You can learn from the best posted courses anywhere, instead of getting stuck with professors that may know less than you do, and you can use referrals to these "great standards". Exams could actually test knowledge by being more interactive and dynamic.

But here is the problem. Many older people view college less as a learning experience and more of a right-of-passage (hazing anybody?). Just look at some of the above posts. It "shows commitment" (to doing meaningless work). And more importantly, it is a HUGE business. Sure, putting it all online would still be a business endeavor, but look at all the lost jobs in the process (re: the recent west coast dock workers strike). The biggest payoffs would be transferred to the educators that create great multimedia learning programs, and not Principles and Deans and other admins.

Sure, there is still hands on work that needs to be available, particularly in engineering, the sciences, and the arts, but this has been shifting to job training for the last 30 years or so and is more and more becoming easily financeable by the corporations that would employ you.

I feel for you kuphryn. I once dropped out of school for similar reasons to those you posted, but I soon found that I was only "qualified" for a factory job making 8 bucks an hour, even though I had material that could be published in mathematics and physics journals... Finally, I went back and finished up my degree, and even though it is in a completely unrelated field, found it much easier to get a programming job. Ever since I got out of college, though, there is one thing that is for sure. I definitely have more time available now to learn.

I have to agree that having that pretty piece of paper does make a difference. Of the companies I know of, they would either prefer or would only hire people with a diploma. Although I'm not sure the diploma necc. needs to be in the field of computers.

I know the department I work in will only hire people with a college degree. Some departments in my company don't allow promotions (like joing research groups) unless you have higher degrees. Does any of this make sense? I don't necc. think so. Luckily the company I work is also beginning to realizing this.

As its already been mentioned, I've also met people with a masters or PHD who I didn't persieve as any more qualified than someone with a BS or no colledge degree.

Every college (university) has a different curriculum. I've noticed that some colleges are better than others. I percieve this one university near me as having a poor computer science program. This possibly bad perception is based on the graduates/coops/interns I've interviewed.

But I found some people comming from this university to be very knowledgeable and smart, etc. So I think... why? My 5 minute theory is that what people get out of college depends on them. Some people put in the extra effort by joining research groups, grad/undergrad assistance, interns, coops, exploring on thier own, etc.... And other just go to class, take tests, and learn only what they have to.

I got an internship my sophmore year. The internship turned into a job that lasted the rest of the schools years. Looking back, I learned more at the job (Ex: software engineering, testing, documentation, coding, working with others, designing, etc...)than I did at school . And the experience looked very good on my resume. :)

So what did I get out of college? Mainly structured learning of the basic foundations. Data Structures(!!), Software Engineering foundation, OO Design (although the class stunk), mathmatics, english classes (being able to write good design documents is important), other classes/things that got me away from the computer (also important :cool: ), etc...

I think the foundations (for example: data structures) is a must. If you can learn this stuff on your own, outside of school, cool! Back in my college years, I needed the structured learning of school. :o

So whats my point with all of this? hhmm.. I think I have a point?? :D :D
a) I think the diploma is important.
b) I also think that if you find your college too easy/boring, maybe its their computer science program (???). Maybe (???) explore other schools ??????
c) Make the most of college. Look into interning, coop, research, etc... Stuff like this will give you good experience and look good on the resume.

my 2 cents....

Okay. Thanks.

I will graduate! I will get the degree even if it only symbolizes a "passport" to job interviews.

As I mentioned that the stuff they teach in college come directly from books. I can read computer science books easily and learn quickly. My C++ design and implementatiion experience while learning *on my own* positively affects my ability to learn new and different software design tools. Rather than looking for a job now, I will study software design and other programming tools including more advanced C++, Win32 ASM, and COM. I figure that since I have to go to college, I might as well use the free-time wisely.

Listing knowledge of and experience with MFC, Win32 API, Win32 ASM, and COM might not mean much to many interviewers, but it cannot hurt either. My goal is to walk into a job with at least fundamental knowledge and experience to understand a project and know where to start.

Kuphryn

Quote:

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I feel uncertained because of the fact that I do not like to deal with people. Please understand I am not talking about friends. I believe there is a time for fun and a time to get the job done. The two do not mix. In summation, I have trouble "communicating" with employers. Or should I say "selling myself?"

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Hmmm....is it only me who sees a problem here?

I'm one of those who spent the first 18 years of my working life without a degree. I *know* I was good at my job (whatever my job was at any particular time), because I have a sh*tload of commendations/references/awards from each job. Trouble is, I could never 'get ahead' - no promotions, no "salary" (hourly worker only) etc etc.

Then, after getting the big D-I-V-O-R-C-E, I figured out that I *could* actually afford to go off to university and get a degree. I figured out that I had a bit of a talent for programming (one of the courses I took had a bit of pascal programming), and managed to write a database system for a major worldwide vehicle manufacturer, which saved them approx $1.2 million dollars a year. Well, I went to uni, got my degree, and all of a sudden, I was getting headhunted. People and companies that I'd either worked for, or had applied for jobs with them, suddenly wanted me to come and work for them. HA! Now the boot was on the other foot....and believe me, its a great feeling.

Anyway, the above quote seems to emphasise something to me, speaking as both an employee, and a business owner. I don't care how good a programmer is, if he can't interact with me, other programmers, or in some cases, the user(s) and customer(s), then he will NEVER be employed by me. He will never even make it to an interview - or if he does, he'll have a long way to go to convince me to employ him.

Teamwork is vital in software development - as you will find out when you get into some of your software engineering projects. Interacting with other students, lecturers, prospective employers etc is absolutely vital to your future job prospects.

Oh - always be friendly and open when you're talking about work or programming....you never know whether the person you meet in the pub/on the street/at a dinner etc could be a future employer. I've managed to get one job by talking to a guy I met at a political dinner....apparently I manged to impress him so much, he called me the following day and offered me a job!

So, I guess that if you follow my experiences, you'll be staying in Uni and getting your degree. Hopefully you'll interact with other people in your course, and at your uni a little bit more to become more "well rounded" as someone else mentioned earlier.

Good luck!

Oh yeah - something else I forgot to mention. I'm currently working as a contractor, and moving from industry to industry. In the last two years, I've done programs for :

- Mass transport industry
- Financial Planning industry
- Natural Gas wholesale industry
- Telecommunications industry
and in the past 10 years before that....
- Motor vehicle manufacturing industry
- Police force (only did templates here, not programming - unfortunately)

I am getting so much more out of my work now - I'm constantly learning new stuff about new industries....relating past experience into stuff I do today...there really is no comparing life before the degree, to life after it. For once in my life, I'm feeling quite content - like I don't have to keep searching for something.

FYI - I guess you're a little like me, kuphryn, - I dropped out of high school when I was 15 because I was bored....but I sucessfully completed my degree when I was 37.

Okay. Thanks.

I want to clear up one point. I mentioned about communication with other people. I have enjoy communication with friends and people I know. When I said I did not like to "deal with people," I meant that I did not want to be bothered when working on a project. I work better in a quiet setting where I can think.

Yes, I will definitely stay and get my degree. One key reason I asked the questions in this thread was the fact that I found the materials I am studying not challenging enough. As of the past week, I have decided to buy books that will utimately futher my knowledge, understanding, and experience with respect to more advanced C++, sofware design, and soon COM.

I am not bored aslong as there is something fun an exciting to learning.

Kuphryn

It seems the evolution of the universe is more advanced than I had thought. Can't believe I missed this announcement!

http://ocw.mit.edu/index.html

Maybe there is hope for mankind.

Definitely No-College. Real programmers learn by books.

NOT.

"Stay at school" man ;) By all means do !

I will finish college.

Kuphryn

I am assuming you attend some night school or one of those technical institutes advertised on TV. You keep rerferring to learning 'Winsock" and "MFC" in school. A bachelor's in CS is supposed to teach you more about computer science theory, a litte bit of software design and not that much actual languages and technologies. With sufficient background in theory and architecture you should be able to learn any language or API quickly.

No. I do not go to a technical college.

You mentioned the following, "With sufficient background in theory and architecture you should be able to learn any language or API quickly." You would be surprise at the number of college graduates in computer science who know little about software design and implementation.

Look there are two fundamental forms of computer science: theory and design and implementation. Computer science theorists, from my perspective, are mathematicians who analyze programming algorithms such as search speed of a sorting algorithm. An excellent example is Donald E. Knuth of Stanford University.

The second form of computer science is design and implementation (i.e. programmers) and we specialize primarily in software design and implementation.

I understand the importance of theory and agree that programmers should understand the theories behind computer science. Nonetheless, I strongly feel that programmers should understand and have experiences designing and implementing software.

I spoke to professors and few understand the fundamental of "API," "Winsock," or "MFC," as you pointed out.

Kuphryn

They don't have to know the details of an implementation. Rather, they should know how to built such an implementation, so that you understand how it works and not merely "use" these.

There is not 2 Comp. Sc. There is Comp. Sc. :)

It consists of (among others) math, logic, architecture, design, paradigms and code. To be truly polyvalent, you have to be at least knowledgeable if not an expert in all of these fields.

A Comp. Sc. bachelor is not much specialized in any of these particular fields. Although one can be more proficient with any one of these.

As for the lack of real life experience, I must agree with you. Universities and colleges tend to focus on theory and leave little place for practice. This is unfortunate, but that's when you have to compensate with extra curricular activities.

Now you should understand the importance of "Winsock" and "MFC." We know the theories, now let see what we can do with those theories.

Kuphryn

when i read what u said .the feeling is that u must clever ,but what u waht to think is that u should find a way to solute the
problem u faced.
i think u should adapt uself to the college.if u don't change it.
and i don't think u find no opportunity to improve u experience in college.