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Exactly what I have been trying to say in relaqtion to science Che_Rish. I know you may or may not be referring to God as I understand him but this was what I was trying to get across:Quote:
Originally Posted by che_rish
Science can answer HOW things were done, not WHY.
I want to make one more point now, if you believe God can do all these things, don't you think it would be in His power to come and make His dwelling among us to reconcilliate Himself with us humans?
//end evangelistic rant :P
che_rish, you should try to read about multiverse, while nothing to prove/disprove god, it's a good read (just a theory) about universe and why all those stuff seems to be so much well-done for life.
JeffB
Is it suffice to say that I believe the Bible came from God? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Deniz
EDIT: I should have said, the Bible is "inspired" of God.
I dont quite understand what you mean that God's dwelling is among US humans. According to the Bible, His throne is in heaven. (Psalms 11:4) Hence, HE does not dwell among us on earth, but HE resides in heaven...
Further investigation of the Bible shows that the "heaven" mentioned in that specific scripture/passage (Psalm 11:4) did not mean the physical heaven or sky that we see from our perspective on earth. Here are some proofs:
1) Solomon, the constructor of the temple at Jerusalem, stated that the "heavens, yes, the heaven of the heavens" cannot contain God. (1 King 8:27)
2) As the Creator of the heavens, God's position is far above them all, and "his name alone is unreachably high. His dignity is above earth and heaven." (Psalm 148:13)
3) God measures the physical heavens as easily as a man would measure an object by spreading his fingers so that the object lies between the tips of the thumb and the little finger. (Isaiah 40:12)
Solomon’s statement does not mean that God has no specific place of residence. Nor does it mean that he is omnipresent in the sense of being literally everywhere and in everything. This can be seen from the fact that Solomon also spoke of God as hearing "from the heavens, your established place of dwelling," that is, the heavens of the spirit realm. (1 King 8:30,39)
Thus, in the physical sense, the term "heavens" covers a wide range. While it may refer to the farthest reaches of universal space, it may also refer to something that is simply high, or lofty, to a degree beyond the ordinary. Thus, those aboard storm-tossed ships are said to "go up to the heavens, . . . down to the bottoms." (Psalm 107:26)
The same original-language words used for the physical heavens are also applied to the spiritual heavens. As has been seen, God does not reside in the physical heavens, being a Spirit (John 4:24)
However, since he is "the High and Lofty One" who resides in "the height" (Isaiah 57:15), the basic sense of that which is "lifted up" or "lofty" expressed in the Hebrew-language word makes it appropriate to describe God’s "lofty abode of holiness and beauty." (Isaiah 63:15; Psalm 33:13, 14; 115:3) As the Maker of the physical heavens (Genesis 14:19; Psalm 33:6), God is also their Owner. (Psalm 115:15, 16) Whatever is his pleasure to do in them, he does, including miraculous acts.
Oh wow.. this has become quite a another long post for me in this thread. I hope it was informative though. :)
Did you mean "multiverse"? I have read about it in passing at wikipedia.org. So tell me, for you... why do all those stuff seems to be so much well-done for life? Just curious. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffB
That was an interesting read, thanks for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by che_rish
As far as God dwelling among us there are branches of theology that can answer some of your queries Paterology, Christology & Pneumatology Forums but what I was referring to was Jesus living here on earth as fully human as well as fully God. This is a difficult concept to get our heads around so if anyone doesn't understand it at once don't panic ;)
:) I feel I have to clear some things out...read it with free mind and not with the narrow one...because this post is not meant to disrespect any religion...even for atheist as we're all human being(homosepians)..
It seems that you don't know much about Islam...the 'war' that you mention is only be held after the anti-Islam people try to expel from their land(Madina->its local people consist of two tribes named Aus and Khawarij, and they put their faith in Islam)..then the first war began(Badr war)...and in the Quran also said that the only war that can be held if the other want to expel Muslim from their land...and Islam spread its wing to Asia continent through trade..Quote:
Originally Posted by Deniz
I'm not trying to argue who's right and who's wrong...but this statement looks biased..(for the Muslim) all the other prophet e.g:Jacob, Moses, Abraham, Noah, Jesus etc and even Mohammad is only a messenger..and there is only one God..and for Jesus that born without a father, it's called 'Mukjizat' or in other word, something unusual that proved their prophecy...and another prophet also got 'Mukjizat' e.g: Moses: Can speak directly to God, split the Red Sea, etc, Jesus: Born without father, can cure blind, etc...all the prophet do the same as a human being e.g: eat, sleep, etc but they are the holy people that come to spread the word of God..and these all in Muslims believe...not to argue who's right or wrong...Quote:
You are right about muhammed. He only said he was the messenger & the whole religion started through him with nothing there to keep him honest.
Yes..and they also belief that Jesus will come back near the time of World Destruction(Kiamat)..and why Jesus not Mohammad...beacause every living things will die once..and Jesus did not die yet...and this is also didn't meant that I try to oppose any of the explaination above...Quote:
Muslims claim "They didnt crucify Jesus but they thought they did".
\I maybe sound that I'm a Muslim.. but it's not that you think...(still atheist)...this I got when I ask my Muslim friend.. and I still crave for the truth in every religion because I do believe that something 'powerful' that create us...and I want to know which God it is(Christian?Jews?Muslim?..)...(the funny thing is Christian believe in Moses and his God...and Muslim believe in both, Moses and Jesus, and their God...and jews only believe in Moses and his God)... so I do some studying in every religion.. even the religion that didn't have prophet such as Hinduism, Budhism, etc...
\can anyone tell me why in the Bible it also have letters from the Pope...correct me if I'm wrong..
\\we know each other better if we know our differences better...
Ultimatom (anti-Islam people try to expel from their land) followed by war( ..then the first war began). That's what I said.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrRee
Muhammed's only miracle (mujize which is a direct translation meaning 'miracle') was that he claimed to be illiterate and then some years later after continiously going out to the mountain he came back with a book. Did you know one of Muhammed's close relatives was a Jew? And did you know Judaism & Islam a fairly close together in a lot of ways? Read Hz. Ali's memoirs to see what Muhammed was really like in person.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrRee
Only after completely defacing the Bible by destroying the doctrine, introducing a new God as being "The God" and trying to make us believe it is part of the same religious cycle.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrRee
For example: If you look at the Old Testament and their times you will see that God introduced a law 'eye for an eye'. This was introduced to stop people from destroying a whole vilage to get revenge for something small which was the kind of thing that happened those days. In the New Testament the same God said "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:38-39). This was how God was introducing his laws on us in the same way a parent would have different rules for a 5 year old and a 25 year old child. This was God's guidance on His people.
Now for muhammed to come in and say 'ye for an eye' and say 'kill unbelievers' and to say 'unbelievers are those who say God is the son of Mary' ets ets ets it just does not fit. The Bible however warns us of a false prophet who will lead many astray. You decide. These are small examples, the contradictions between Islam & the Bible are vast. It can not be the same God they are promoting. I can go deeper but this isnt the place for it.
Good for you, read them all. :) You will see how different they are and not all roads lead to Rome.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrRee
Which Pope? If you mean Apostolic succession then technically Peter the Apostle was the first Pope so you could say there are a couple of books in the Bible written by "A pope". If you mean Pope Jean Paul or Pope Benedict then the answer is no, there are no books in the Bible written by them.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrRee
that was an interesting explanation...I'll look onto these area and try to believe in God...(still seeking for which one)...
He didn't say 'kill unbelievers'...but he warn the Muslim to protect themselves...and I cannot see the same in Jews and Muslims either...Quote:
Now for muhammed to come in and say 'ye for an eye' and say 'kill unbelievers' and to say 'unbelievers are those who say God is the son of Mary' ets ets ets it just does not fit.
/I had read some of the Quran translation script...I think it's somewhat miracle, e.g: the creation of man in their mother's womb...this knowledge is not available in that time...and many other things....but it also have some statement that can be argued....
/hope I will get the truth out of the all facts..
/edit: my friend said Mohammad didn't get the whole book after he went out to a hill...he get the Quran words from time to time and before he passed away...they composed them and became Qoran..
Would you like me to go & dig up the quoran references where it states 'kill unbelievers'? Todays terrorism is based on that which most muslims shun but within context can be seen as an accurate description of what they are doing within a declared jihad (holy war).
The quoran also encourages revenge which is completely opposite to what Jesus said when he said "Dont seek revenge, but rather pray for those who persecute you" or words to that effect.
Thats what I said too, I stated in my above post it took years. The real miracle would have been if he could be accounted for all his life but suddenly got the quoran with others present around him. But these are things that come from dark corners & that came in secret. Did you know muhammed had to change some of the "ever-perfect" quoran which he found mistakes in? He later told people that the devil entered his heart & made him write things down wrong. These are found in the book "Demonic Verses" (seytani ayetler) by Salman Rushdi who Iranian muslim fanatics have been trying to assasinate for decades. Ask your friend about those verses.Quote:
edit: my friend said Mohammad didn't get the whole book after he went out to a hill...he get the Quran words from time to time and before he passed away...they composed them and became Qoran..
Ok here they are:
From the Koran:
Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191
Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely. - Sura 2:193 and 8:39
And for contrast, from the Bible New Testament:
Matthew 5:43-48
43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
I disagree that the terrorist is created by any religion...because these people just make religion as excuse...there're terrorist from Muslim, Christian, Jews,Hindu,etc and even atheist(communist)...
and for the translation for Sura 2:193...the translation is wrong...
and for the Sura 2:191Quote:
You may also fight them to eliminate oppression, and to worship GOD freely. If they refrain, you shall not aggress; aggression is permitted only against the aggressors.
and you should look the verse before it: Sura 2:190 :You may fight in the cause of GOD against those who attack you, but do not aggress. GOD does not love the aggressors.Quote:
You may kill those who wage war against you, and you may evict them whence they evicted you. Oppression is worse than murder...
and all fighting is regulated by the basic rule in 60:8-9. Fighting is allowed strictly in self-defense, while aggression and oppression are strongly condemned throughout the Quran.
and you quote that:
according to my friend..Mohamad still get the verses when he already spread the teach...and he said there is no such thing about Mohamad change the Quran verses...Quote:
Thats what I said too, I stated in my above post it took years. The real miracle would have been if he could be accounted for all his life but suddenly got the quoran with others present around him.
//ahh..my head will explode if I continue to the things about religion..it seems that all religion have their pros and conts...
//I've been a bad guy throughout my life and I try to be a good guy that believe in God...but I still couldn't do that...on the contrary from Cilu, I start to believe there is a God when I start learn about science...such as the theory that 'Force is not be created or destoyed...it just change form"...
//I'm a Christian while I was a child..but I didn't do the religious thing and I become atheist...but for some reasons I start to belive in God...but I don't want to just pick any religion...I want to know and examine fisrt... :cry:
I concur, friend. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by mrRee
When I study about elctron, proton, neutron, photon etc back in my schoool...I just see it as another things...but later (about last year..)I start to thinking...if these thing exist but no one ever see them, how can they proved that that things really exist...and I start to thinking about God...the religious man said God exist but they never really see him before...but they just knew that God exist and the proof for that is everywhere...and I start looking for proof...And the proves that I found seems logic...
now my real confusion is...which religion is true...I'm sorry I think I'll have to stop thinking about this for a while to cool off my head... :(
Yeah, just take it easy dude. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by mrRee
To me, religion is way of life.. just like answering people's questions on this forum is..Quote:
Originally Posted by mrRee