Win32 API future ...?

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cannot understand how longhorn and .Net solve the performance issues without pointers. I found the programs written in C# very very slow in executing compared to C and C++. I did a few sample programs using C# in win2k and it took 5-6 seconds to print two strings

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I share the same concerns. It just doesnt make sense, how even if .NET is the "native" api for Longhrn, it will solve this issue. whenever you have intermediate code and garbage collection, you lose performace, and there is no way around it. I guess everything will be slower? and MS just doesnt care cuz we will all have good computers anyway. Or am I wrong about this?

I am pretty sure that Win32 API will still be around for Linghorn. MS will have to support it just for all the applications that are already written using it.
I dont think the Win32 API and MFC will "die" until at least ~5 years after Longhorn comes out.

Personally, I really dont like .NET Framework. Whenever I can I choose not to use it, or any of its languages, and opt to do things in C++.
Currently, using the framework is a huge performance hit. The difference is actually noticable in use of the program; even on modern hardware. And there are still many people who write performance oriented apps, albeit probably half would be for Linux. The whole .NET thing seems to be to dumb down programming, and make it easier.
Currently, any .NET app has dependancies, and you cant guarantee it will run on any given machine. So you need to redistribute dotnetfx.exe with it or get your users to dl and intall it. That's a pretty big overhead now, when you can have a much smaller Win32 or statically linked MFC app with no more than 500k overhead. And I know it will run on any Win95+ machine. I admit this will not be an issue once Longhorn comes out.
To me, it's a lot like MS trying to pull off the Java thing. You basically have a set of languages that run on a sort of virtual machine (the .NET Framework). There are many other comparisons. Such as they are both not fully compiled. They are both slow. They are both "safer". Except there is one great advantage that Java has over .NET (and it's the main selling point of Java). It is truly cross-platform.
Lastly VB syntax is disgusting and irrational at best. :)

There are advantages to .NET, but call me a purist, or old fashioned, or whatever, I like my true C++ better.

Just my 2 cents,

Latem

I say that we all get Gentoo and be rid of the Windows irritant. Any seconds on that? :)

First, we can't blame Microsoft for it's monopolistic policies. Altough this is not a political or socialeconomic forum, to criticize Microsoft without criticizing world capitalism: that's the base on which Microsoft operates and the base on which such monopolies are safe to do anything they want.

IMHO, if .NET become polished (let's see 2.0 in the future), it will become an alternative. In fact, using C++ with the .NET framework gives you the maximum flexibility, you can mix a lot of things, you can write in your own coding style without the lackluster performance and (in my point of view) the confuse C# syntax.

It's true than in terms of raw performance, today nothing beats raw API... .NET cannot be used today for, e.g, performance-critical scientific applications. Imagine Mathematica wrote on .NET...

WinAPI will be there , but it's true that the foundations of WinAPI are near 20-years old... That sometime will change.

Microsoft thinks that .NET is the future , and to promote .NET, their way to do it in the future will be nothing more that crush the old API at a slow pace, until all of us are converted to the .NET religion.

Ahh...

and about Linux, I don't feel comfortable developing with it. I'm not pro-Microsoft... but, nothing beats the Microsoft development tools for Windows. That's my experience.

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Originally posted by indiocolifa
Microsoft thinks that .NET is the future , and to promote .NET, their way to do it in the future will be nothing more that crush the old API at a slow pace, until all of us are converted to the .NET religion.

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people fear change :D

I was kidding about the Microsoft thing, I was just frustrated with all of this. Let's hope that the learning curve for .NET isn't too steep, or otherwise I won't be happy.

/*Here Linux Linux Linux Linux!!*/

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Originally posted by Mick
people fear change :D

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Well, I'd be a liar if I said no. I invested some time into understanding WinAPI and now Microsoft wants to kill it, doesn't seem like the best decision, but that's Microsoft for you.

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Originally posted by indiocolifa
Ahh...

and about Linux, I don't feel comfortable developing with it. I'm not pro-Microsoft... but, nothing beats the Microsoft development tools for Windows. That's my experience.

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Well, Microsoft isn't really pro-Linux either :rolleyes: , they're 2 different entities trying to kill each other and come out on top.

True, Microsoft does have better development tools, but Linux is free and you're never affected by Microsoft's quircks, security problems, changes in thought, etc. That and Linux(in my opinion) will become the next big thing, companies have been investing alot of money into this, most notably IBM, not something that should be ignored.

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Originally posted by YourSurrogateGod
Well, I'd be a liar if I said no. I invested some time into understanding WinAPI and now Microsoft wants to kill it, doesn't seem like the best decision, but that's Microsoft for you.

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It's been around for awhile. I for one welcome our new .NET overlords...

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Originally posted by YourSurrogateGod
True, Microsoft does have better development tools, but Linux is free and you're never affected by Microsoft's quircks, security problems, changes in thought, etc. That and Linux(in my opinion) will become the next big thing, companies have been investing alot of money into this, most notably IBM, not something that should be ignored.

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It will make strides in the server side that's about it.

and, what about programming WinAPI under Linux!?

Solution for all WinAPI + Linux fans...
:D

www.winehq.org

Well, what do you know, Windows in Linux...

This still gives me some hope...

I hope Linux becomes the new way of things when it comes to desktops(most importantly at home).

It is true that from an economic point of view, basically forcing .NET development is one of the best thing MS can do.
It also makes programming easier and less time consuming, which is a good thing.

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Let's hope that the learning curve for .NET isn't too steep, or otherwise I won't be happy.

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I am no expert but I find .NET easier than Win32 API...
It just takes getting used to, and learning how it works.

As for Linux, it is getting a lot of focus today, but lets face it, Linux always has, and imho, always will be the programmer's OS.
I agree VS is a great development tool. But Linux is full of useful tools as well. Some good IDE's are Anjuta, Eclipse (which has great C++ and CVS support, but is slow cuz its Java), and Qt tools. And then there are the debuggers, memory profilers, and so on. It truly is the "programmer's" OS. Most of my work is in Linux, and while there is no "single ultimate tool" for dev, alltogether there isnt much Linux cant do for you.

Latem

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Originally posted by RussG1
I really do not know much about managed code, but from reading TheCPUWizard comments:

The underlying .NET framework will basically be the new Windows API, and will have it's own functions in support of OpenGL, etc. Imagine learning to program windows later, without having ever learned the current Windows API, or MFC, etc, I imagine it will be much the same as learning the Windows API now (or learning to program using any new library, etc), but less error prone.

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and the fun will not be reading about what interface microsoft documents. The fun will be discovering what they don't and all the goodies that implies :D

from what I've seen (that's a good amount) MS has excellent documentation for all of its products. Microsoft's new business is technology to empower developers. They develop...we develop...they make $....we make $....they make more than us...you know how it works. But they have the best documentation and backwards compatibility I've seen.

And while we're talking about business strategy the need for fast development is obvious. Where is all the money? Developing for business. Remember the first .NET ads? Those were obviously geared toward business development. And in business fast development time is key. MS is just trying to stay on top. API will still be there, but if you don't know .NET when Longhorn comes out don't go whining to microsoft. They're trying to keep up and so should you.

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Originally posted by briball
But they have the best documentation and backwards compatibility I've seen.

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Just common sense. It would be product suicide for the LongHorn OS if they didn't have backward compatability. Your customers use your products and if those products do not run on LongHorn without a total rewrite of the code then your customers will be upgrading to LongHorn when you have completed the port. That could take a long time depending on the size of your codebase and the resources you have to throw at it...again common sense.