God and religion

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Originally Posted by cilu

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you here. There are many other inteligent species, but none can be compared with humans in terms of inteligence.

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remember that the majority of what we see as human intelligence is accumulation of memes over time. I think much if not most of human achievement can be pegged to writing, record keeping and agriculture. If it weren't for these things, I think we would be most likely tool using nomads. In a sense, this is the situation that dolphins are stuck in, because they can't use tools or set up an agricultural system. One of the greatest Evolutionary tragedies that I can think of though is the Octopus, which are locked in becaue of their breeding method which means Octopi only live a few short years and breeding is synonymous with death.

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Originally Posted by cherish

Sorry if this is kind of late. I left work early yesterday. But here's what I've found out. Let me focus on the topic about Jacob.

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Obviously I know this interpretation since I was 10. ;) The idea is that when you put together different things you get a different picture. I don't have too much time to answer to your message right now, but I'll try to do that in the evening.

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Originally Posted by cilu

Obviously I know this interpretation since I was 10. ;) The idea is that when you put together different things you get a different picture. I don't have too much time to answer to your message right now, but I'll try to do that in the evening.

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I made a mistake when i said authorized or something like that..what i actually meant was related to you having studied the scripts..now since you have .. my point didnt stand...Go ahead :thumb: .

But actually what I personally think that these are things made up out of your mind... you keep on moulding your thoughts until they are the best fit as per your requirements. And that;s why we have so much diversity in thoughts in this context. Some believe in God, some dont, some believe in religion and some dont..some believe in god and religion both and some just one and not the other..some dont in any of these..and some only a few aspects of these..and many more PnCs if possible. :thumb:

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Originally Posted by JernauGurgeh

is there also the possiblitiy that we evolved to our current state? One possibility is that we were chosen, since we are the only species capable of worshipping God.

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Well that's an interesting new twist that I've never heard before - but to me, it seems to have some obvious problems.

If that theory was true, you're kinda saying that everything evolved with or without God's help. Then one day, God realised that man had evolved enough to warrant worshipping him. In other words, man was originally created (like everything else) without any inate ability to worship but man developed that ability through evolution. This almost implies that God didn't originally intend man to be anything special which, in turn, implies that God isn't as omniscient as religious leaders would have us believe.

Difficulties on both sides of the fence there, I think...! :)

As I see it, understanding religion, god and prety much everything else is unique for each individual. How you perceive your god might make no sense to me and viceversa.

Besides, I think we are extremelly arrogant to think we can understand/prove God ( or pretty much anything else :) ). Imagine what an ant thinks about us, our cars or a really big, juicy sandwich.

We are ants living on a sandwich and the sad thing is that the sandwich is getting smaller and less juicier.

Actually, there are two distinct characteristics of man which - if you believe them to be unique - almost demand that any being which possessed them would inevitably invent the existence of god.

Firstly man is extraordinarily good at recognising patterns. Not just simple patterns - but complex patterns that develop and change over time. Secondly, man (in my view) is probably the only living creature that believes in luck.

If you accept those two arguments it is absolutely inevitable that primitive man would invent god. Why? Because primitive man would rely on, hope for and depend upon good luck to bring favourable weather and bountiful harvests. Man would want to know why some harvests were good and others bad. He would inevitably look for patterns that might be influencing the harvests. Over time, primitive man would start to believe that if he behaved in a certain way, he was more likely to be endowed with good fortune and a good harvest.

From there, it's not a giant leap to think that there must be some "being" who dishes out all this good fortune - and that the duty of man is to please this being. You've already got the raw ingredients for a god. In my view, any primitive creature who believes in luck and who can recognise complex patterns will inevitably invent a god. To a primitive being, there would be no other way of explaining the world.

This also explains why - as man becomes more sophisticated - his belief in the possibility of god gets gradually diminished.

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Originally Posted by PadexArt

We are ants living on a sandwich and the sad thing is that the sandwich is getting smaller and less juicier.

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So TRUE! :thumb:

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Originally Posted by John E

Agreed - but I think I've asked a valid question here.... Out of all the fabulous, wondrous things that God supposedly created - why is man the only creation required to worship him?

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because you are assuming that the God currently existing is the God conseptualised by christianity.

What is there actually exist a God? (I mean assuming what if) But this God isn`t the God in the bible. Most opinions given here center around christianity which is not a bad thing, since not many other religions forcefully label other religions as "evil" (other than islam)

considering this fact, it`s not surprising that most of the bloodshed done in the name of religion is between christianity and islam

Hitai - I don't think that what I said applies only to Christianity. As far as I know, most religions revolve around the worship of some sort of god - and the vast majority of religions believe that god made the universe and everything in it.

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Actually, there are two distinct characteristics of man which - if you believe them to be unique - almost demand that any being which possessed them would inevitably invent the existence of god.

Firstly man is extraordinarily good at recognising patterns. Not just simple patterns - but complex patterns that develop and change over time. Secondly, man (in my view) is probably the only living creature that believes in luck.

If you accept those two arguments it is absolutely inevitable that primitive man would invent god. Why? Because primitive man would rely on, hope for and depend upon good luck to bring favourable weather and bountiful harvests. Man would want to know why some harvests were good and others bad. He would inevitably look for patterns that might be influencing the harvests. Over time, primitive man would start to believe that if he behaved in a certain way, he was more likely to be endowed with good fortune and a good harvest.

From there, it's not a giant leap to think that there must be some "being" who dishes out all this good fortune - and that the duty of man is to please this being. You've already got the raw ingredients for a god. In my view, any primitive creature who believes in luck and who can recognise complex patterns will inevitably invent a god. To a primitive being, there would be no other way of explaining the world.

This also explains why - as man becomes more sophisticated - his belief in the possibility of god gets gradually diminished.

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Here is something that I agree 100% with you.

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Originally Posted by hitai

because you are assuming that the God currently existing is the God conseptualised by christianity.

What is there actually exist a God? (I mean assuming what if) But this God isn`t the God in the bible. Most opinions given here center around christianity which is not a bad thing, since not many other religions forcefully label other religions as "evil" (other than islam)

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Well, that is so, since most people that posted here come from Christian-oriented countries. I don't know for others, but I don't know too much about islam. I know the basic things, I don't know details. I know that that the Quran and the Bible share common elements (people, angels, events), and that basically, with different flavours, God/Yehowa and Allah are the same. What differes are the teaching of the two holly scriptures.

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Originally Posted by hitai

considering this fact, it`s not surprising that most of the bloodshed done in the name of religion is between christianity and islam

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And not just between, but within them too. Catholics fought protestants (and still do, but not at the same extent as centuries ago), Sunnis fight Shiites. Let alone the hate between muslims and jews. Honnestly, I can't understand how people could hate each other so much.

You know, we talked about the ability of worshipping God. But I really wonder, why does God like so much to be worshipped?

And why did he dislike all the people, except for a chosen nation (the Israelites), until 2,000 years ago, when he turned his face from the Jews to the other nations of the world. [And since Hitai said we talked only about Christian God, why does Allah hate so much the Jews? Aren't they his creation too?] This shows, in my opinion, that there is something terribly wrong with this God we are served. That he was modelated during the centuries, according to different social, cultural, historic events.

Personally i think there is no god and all of this religion is made by Peoples only so they can fool to others.

it's a very vast topic. as i told i think there is no god but i always like to go temple.because i am getting peace there die to their atmosphere .i always pray infront of god. even i know till then i am not going to work hard i am not going to get anything but i will why because i think that god is not a entity in the form of jesus,alah bhagwan .but something is there who is hidden from all of us and controling us. as cilu told that seeya fight with suni.so it's according to law energy not be created nor be destroy. it should be maintain . so he also trying to maintain this level by all of this.when something wrong happen we always says god wat u have done.but in good time we never asked hi.go to church for pray they asked for money.brahmin they ask for money.to meet allah has to spend lacks rupees.
why so this time all are like bussiness they are making fool people by playing their emotion and their religion.as we heared adam and hawa was the first on the earth can anybody has some idea about their religion.

better to live a good life . and no body wann fight today no body have this much time only due to few people all of this war is going on.

let's hope everything will going to finish soon and we can enjoy our life .

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Originally Posted by cilu

And why did he dislike all the people, except for a chosen nation (the Israelites), until 2,000 years ago, when he turned his face from the Jews to the other nations of the world.

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One has to be very careful to note that much of what one finds in the Bible is highly political litterature. One needs only to study the appocoliptic (sp) books to understand the extend of this potical writing. So, naturally much of the OT would portray the surrounding nations as "evil" and the Jewish nation as "good". So, I would say that you are mis-understanding the liturature. He (God) didn't like the Jews and then have a change of heart, rather it is the writing which has changed (i.e. the authors have changed, not God).

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Originally Posted by cilu

And since Hitai said we talked only about Christian God, why does Allah hate so much the Jews? Aren't they his creation too?

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I would be intreged by this... are there any Muslims out there who would care to elaborate on this?

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So, I would say that you are mis-understanding the liturature. He (God) didn't like the Jews and then have a change of heart, rather it is the writing which has changed (i.e. the authors have changed, not God).

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It was a supposition. I assumed that God was real and the Bible was inspired by him. Since I don't believe that, I trully agree with you, that it only reflects the political, cultural, social environment in which the authors of the books lived.

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Originally Posted by cilu

It was a supposition. I assumed that God was real and the Bible was inspired by him. Since I don't believe that, I trully agree with you, that it only reflects the political, cultural, social environment in which the authors of the books lived.

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Oh, okay. I think the concept of "the Bible was inspired by [God]" is quit a thorny issue. I doubt very much any one would believe that the Bible dropped out fo the sky, leather bound and with cross references...

Now, I am a christian so you'll have to forgive my natural bias. I'll try to be as objective as possible. So, bear with me.

I think it would be near to impossible for any one to PROVE that God exists, you'll have to be convicted of that yourself... but, suppose for arguments sake that there is a God. If He did inspire the Bible, would it have come in the form a loud booming voice from heaven dictating to the chosen scribe word for word? Probably not. Plus one can see very different writing styles through the Bible. Often these styles mirror the styles of the time when the
book was written. So straight away one can see that there is an element of man's influence over the books. Hence if there is at lest some element of man's influence then there is naturally an influence of the politcal, social and economic environment on the books.

So, what is my point?

Well, (assuming God does exist) I don't think you can simply say that He changed his mind 2000 years ago, and suddenly decided He liked everyone not just Jews. I think that the Jewish nation constantly fought to develop and protect the Jewish identity. Part of this struggle is reflected in the Bible due to the political overtones assotiated with the writings. This political veiw point would have naturally disappeared from the new testament writings because of the writers aim. Much of these books (NT) would have been aimed at non-Jews.

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Originally Posted by pinky98

Oh, okay. I think the concept of "the Bible was inspired by [God]" is quit a thorny issue. I doubt very much any one would believe that the Bible dropped out fo the sky, leather bound and with cross references...

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Are you familiar with the Bible Code? If not here is a link for you: http://www.biblecodedigest.com/ According to the people that have "revealed it" the Bible is full of prediction of everything that happend and will happen on Earth until the End of the World.

But don't forget to check the Scientific Refutation of the Bible Codes. Using the same algorithms people have found predictions about famous assasinations (Ghandi, Martin Luther King, J.F.K, Yithzak Rabin) in Moby Dik and other books.

The most funny part, is that according to Moby Dik, there are no codes in Torah or the Bible, but according to the Bible, there are codes in Mody Dik. :D http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/mobygen.html

/ the filter... ah, the filter...