Add your comment about the new look and feel of CodeGuru

I thought it did. I thought I indicated that the author can grant any rights to anybody, because they pwn the copyright. How is that unclear?

Mark Schlack
VP, World Wide
Content
EarthWeb

I will indeed ask our lawyers about language that clarifies this. I'm afraid that will have to wait until after the holiday weekend. But let me state again, that nothing in our Terms & Conditions contradicts Zafir's comments or Codeguru's traditional policies.

Mark Schlack

The site went live on developer.com on 9/1; it's now 9/3. We bought this site to do exactly what Codeguru has always done: bring developers together to exchange code. If there's still some issue about rights that's not clear, please explain what it is and I'll try to answer it.

Mark Schlack

Hi Rail,

I don't believe they'll do it and seriously, in this case I don't believe it is necessary. If it is your code, it remains your code even if you submit it to CodeGuru. CodeGuru cannot grant any permissions or impose any restriction to your stuff. It can do so only to stuff that it owns.

The submission guidelines clearly says that as an author you have to allow others to use it.

I know we usually don't read the legalese (at least I don't) but since this has been bandied around so much I'd really appreciate it if you could read the 'Terms and Conditions' and 'permission' document in its entirety and confirm this.

Thanks,
Zafir

Hi Rail,

I don't believe they'll do it and seriously, in this case I don't believe it is necessary. If it is your code, it remains your code even if you submit it to CodeGuru. CodeGuru cannot grant any permissions or impose any restriction to your stuff. It can do so only to stuff that it owns.

The submission guidelines clearly says that as an author you have to allow others to use it.

I know we usually don't read the legalese (at least I don't) but since this has been bandied around so much I'd really appreciate it if you could read the 'Terms and Conditions' and 'permission' document in its entirety and confirm this.

Thanks,
Zafir

You granted Codeguru the right to publish it when you uploaded it to them originally, and the owners of Codeguru have transferred those rights to us. We're not doing anything different with it than Codeguru was when it was a standalone site. We seem to have taken more words in our Terms & Conditions to describe all this, but the reality is still the same.

Mark Schlack

The site is now useless for all intents and purposes. Simply go back to the old codeguru format, and stick your new banners on there. I suspect that if you're waiting for everyone to settle down and accept the change, you'll be dissappointed. The site is hardly functional as it is now.

gary

This should only be for source code since word wrapping of source code can make it unreadable.

This should only be for source code since word wrapping of source code can make it unreadable.

Earthweb VP says:

"You granted Codeguru the right to publish it when you uploaded it to them originally, and the owners of Codeguru have transferred those rights to us."
...
"We're not doing anything different with it than Codeguru was when it was a standalone site. We seem to have taken more words in our Terms & Conditions to describe all this, but the reality is still the same."

OK, then have your legal people put a complete, simple statement saying you have no right to use or control anything uploaded to or downloaded from the codeguru site. State it in simple language that all us lay people can understand without hiring an attorney. Otherwise you guys are just pulling a Clinton on us.

I will indeed ask our lawyers about language that clarifies this

If you can do this then you will go some way to reassuring us. However, we are talking a major rewrite. The bottom line for me is this: if I feel that I need to consult my lawyer about any of the implications then I won't bother to risk it (you wouldn't believe how much our lawyer charges <g>!)

Robin Leatherbarrow

If your lawyers write something so convoluted that I have to ask our company to use its attorneys to interpret it (i.e., 20 words will suffice), then will Earthweb pick up the $200/hour it costs us? If there is --ANY-- ambiguity or need for clarification I won't risk it and I'm history on this page.

That's exactly the point. When the author gives permission, we cannot restrict it. We can however restrict the use of the HTML page. This means that if you want to create a mirror or distribute the HTML page, you need permission. We have no control over the source code itself.

That's exactly the point. When the author gives permission, we cannot restrict it. We can however restrict the use of the HTML page. This means that if you want to create a mirror or distribute the HTML page, you need permission. We have no control over the source code itself.

Hi Zafir

I understand that for anyone posting code or an article on this site has no problems - they still retain full Copyright to their code or article. My problem is the wording when it comes to reuse by others who would wish to use the code in their commercial applications. If the author of the code wishes to place limitations on their code or article they should be permitted to add that to the article or inside the code in a disclaimer. Lack of a disclaimer would suggest that they are relinquishing their ownership of the code and making it public propery.

The wording of the Terms & Conditions is very straight forward:

All pages within this Internet site ("Site") are the property of EarthWeb Inc. Permission (which may be revoked at any time) is granted to download the material in this Site without alterations and for private and non-commercial use only so long as the following copyright notice is included: Copyright 1996, 1997, 1998 EarthWeb Inc. All Rights Reserved

This does not diferentiate between code owned by EarthWeb or code owned by any third parties (the original authors) - so it would read in its present form that any and all Site content may not be used for anything but private and non-commercial use - and if it is used, then the user would have to add the EarthWeb copyright notice. This should be reworded to differentiate between Site content whose copyright is owned by EarthWeb and any disclaimers which may appear in a third party's article.

As for the Permission page, it states:

Please note: Not all materials on the EarthWeb sites are owned by EarthWeb. Rather, some materials may be licensed by EarthWeb from third parties. The policies outlined in these pages apply only to materials owned by EarthWeb Inc..

Therefore none of its limitations on this page should apply to any web content for which they do not own the copyright, so there is no problem (that I can see) with the wording there.

I'm sure EarthWeb's lawyers will be able to check this all out and reword it to fall in line with your original sentiment.

Best regards.

Rail

------------
Recording Engineer/Software Developer
Rail Jon Rogut Software
http://home.earthlink.net/~railro/
[email protected]

That's the problem with legal documents. They try to remove ambiguity and in the process make it very verbose. If you go through the agreement for any software (including VC++ or Java), you'll note that they are even more complex.

I've given my opinion on what this means for whatever it's worth. If you want a lawyers opinion, it will be some more legalese. I wish things were simpler.

That's the problem with legal documents. They try to remove ambiguity and in the process make it very verbose. If you go through the agreement for any software (including VC++ or Java), you'll note that they are even more complex.

I've given my opinion on what this means for whatever it's worth. If you want a lawyers opinion, it will be some more legalese. I wish things were simpler.

We seem to have taken more words in our Terms & Conditions to describe all this, but the reality is still the same.

So change them. In a separate post you say that you will get your legal people to look into things "after the holiday weekend." In other threads the message is that we should all not worry about any hidden implications in your Terms & Conditions. Surely you appreciate the contradiction here? While you hide behind the legal jargon, we should take everything on trust....

If the site really is the same as the old CodeGuru then why not have exactly the same terms and conditions? If you don't then the reality is not "still the same."

Robin Leatherbarrow

Thanks for clarifying that Zafir,

-Rgrds
-prabha

OK, about information to "@" address, now it's working, but missing the addres (blue one :) to the replay post of CG site) where I clicked and automatically put me to the original replay at CG.

(Of coarse, I'm still want, ok, wish to put somwhere to fix place buttons (arrows) for prev./next/home and it'll be nice also the same thing for -hm- status bar ("Forum Index / FAQ/ Edit Profile/ Send Private/ Check Private/ Search/ Logout). Now it scrolls togeather with message.)

Thank you.

Kirk,

Codeguru.developer.com is history as far as its appeal is concerned. There will be no more new content posted there. The gurus who once wrote useful articles will no longer have pleasure in writing them for this low level dump Earthweb has managed to create in a matter of hours. The only thing that will keep people coming back once in a while is code snippet here and there.

You are perhaps in one of the best positions to act quickly and fill in the role Codeguru once filled. But lest you forget what brought the site popularity in the first place... grassroot efforts with clean pages and a great forum: no clutter, no filthe.

It's perfectly okay to make a buck providing this service. Everyone would do it. But a site would be far more valuable if it put one or two ads on each useful page. Just charge more for those fewer ads.

As a side note, I'm amazed and pleased to see the speed and uniformity in which everyone has responded to this acquisition. I don't mind Earthweb owning Codeguru. I just wished they got majority or full share and left the site alone. It's quite hilarious actually... the style which Zafir had created as a small-time individual is far greater than the style quality of these brain-dead drones Earthweb has in its orginization.

Hello there,
Even if we need a solution Kirk and his "Portion by ...." of codes 70% written by others is not a way to go. Works are far advance now to put a free library in place for everyone to contribute and use freely. It is simply selfish trying to take credit for what is not wholly yours. The codejocking site has being there all this time and except newbies no one really cares, so the attempt to use this Zafir's mistake or just lack of forsight is not acceptable, period.

Kirk pack-off.

But do you accept the copyright of the library you publish from codes which do not belong to you?

Similarly, your selfish altitude will not permit those old-timers of the codeguru site to join you either. Just pack-off, instead of trying to take advantage of the current situation.

We will not make the same mistake again. We will now look carefully before we leap..

Yes. We need a independent site. Every guru has its limitations. But we don't know the limitations of codejack till he sells everything to earth web too...

Hello Developpers,

my analyisis of the situation

About Zafir

1) From the viewpoint of marketing Zafir has done a big mistake. He has created a product and has gotten a group of clients which use his product (and looked at his banners). Now he has changed the product without markt survey and without asking the clients about the future. He will loose a part of his clients and i fear he will loose the most important part of his clients: the authors. Authors are very sensible about the use of their code because each code fragment is created in a very difficult process, somtimes it is the work of weeks or even months or years. Nobody sends his results to somebody who does not take care about this and who wants to make cash with it.
2) Zafir has destroyed in one day the confidence which was he has build up during all years in a very careful way. It is like Mercedes when they would suddently create cheap cars without quality. It is only possible to get back the confidence from his former clients when Zafir tells us about his mistake, why he has made the mistake and when he goes back to the original state, when he was independent and didn't had somebody to ask about the copyright of the codefragments of the authors... When he is independent again he can develop codeguru further, but should take care of the clients by making surveys and by listening to wishes as formulated by incomming mail.
3) So Zafir has made a big mistake when he thinks the site has been moved when he technically moved the codefragments of the authors to another server. I think the readers will do the move because they are happy when they find anywhere a solution to their burning problem. But the authors won't do the move because they cannot trust Zafir any longer. We don't know what Zafir will do next. It is now possible he will leave us all and go surfing in Hawai, leaving us in the rain with developper.com.

My thoughts about us

1) We all made a big error when we have send code fragments and comments to a one person site. This person can do with this collection of code what he wants: Selling it to others, changing the rules etc. We now need a non profit organisation.
2) If we look back into the history we can see the same when we see how the church and gurus have occupied areas which were new to the people. Think of the catholic church and astronomy. Open source is new for us all and so we are happy somebody helps us here. Thanks Zafir! - But it is time for us to get independent. Everything will be more chaotic now, but in this chaos new ideas can develop which cannot be developped if somebody is the chief or a guru.

My thoughts about the future

1) The idea to share our code with others is good for us all. See Linux and the development of the `open source`. If we share our code we can learn from each other which is far better than beeing alone with the a problems others have too. This way it is also possible to solve a new problem in a good way because other problems are already solved by others.
2) We all have little time to write papers. So we all have a lot of code which we want to share but which we cannot share because we don't have the time to write nice texts about it and more important: To get the fragments indepentent of other code parts which is not important for the others. What we need too: A site where we can send FREE codefragments, with some comments only. This would be an important source for finding ideas how to solve a problem. Sometimes it is enough for us to see how somebody has solved a similar problem. We don't always need well documented independent code which can be used for all, code from a guru
3) After i have seen codeguru i personally have changed my way of developping source code. I started to write code which is complete independent and where the modules can be contributed to codegure. This is not easy, there are a lot of books written about modularisation of software. I think others have the same problem. So we need a platform for a serious discussion about: 1) How to make existing code independent from other modules. 2) How to write code which solve our problems AND which can be contributed to others
4) What we need to is better index to find the code. I have often searched a long time in codeguru.com to find the code in codeguru. What we need is a multi-dimensional index. Examples are platforms (for example Win16/Win32/WinNT code), controls which are part of the codefragment, type of problem which which is solved (optimation of code, idea only, replacements etc), mfc used/not used, new controls etc.
5) I would prefer a more anarchic way how we can contribute our code to other developpers

I don't know solutions yet. But this is normal for us. We all first start with an analysis!

Sorry for the spelling errors i have made

Ernst Versteeg
[email protected]
Switzerland

Hello developpers!

Because it is our code we have contributed to the old www.codeguru.com i tell all how much code it was on the 31.6.99: Around 188 MBytes and around 13000 files. I have them on a cd

[email protected]

I am very happy to hear that you are changing your look and feel. the only
concern is wether your new design will be effective. my suggestion is this.
let the people who will actually be using the site decide on the design.
possible through a poll. why spend the money on so much realty and have it
fail? maybe you have the best web guru money can buy. even still one persons
apple is another persons orange. what happened here is proof. in the long run
it may save you a potential visiter/customer.

no text

Hello All,
It is really not easy to forgive anyone who touched something you really love. This time is our baby the Codeguru. Zafir is human and can make mistakes, and let us just acknowledge this is one of them. Yes he did, and should have regreted it by now. It is up to us to help the situation, help our brother, who once helped us, but now in trouble. EarthWeb took something they did not have the capacity to handle, but given the chance it is possible for them to come out with something to satisfy all.

I will therefore asked the EarthWeb management to handle this issue with great care and quickly resolve all the weaknesses raised so far.

Zafir, to say sorry is just a sign of maturity not weakness. You provided the management but all of us helped to make the Codeguru site what it was and the reaction so far is simply due to the fact that many felt you did not handle the all issue of selling the site very well. At least we all need to be notified earlier. You know it, we spent sleepless nights to put those codes together. The fact that we posted them to your site means we found something good in there. You have now betrayed the trust we had in you. You are handing us over to a master we do not know or have refused to work with, so just do not expect anyone to keep quiet. So come out, say something to cool the anger.

EarthWeb people, if you have nothing to hide put the legal issue in a better form for us the laymen! We only write codes not laws, and your old license is not being accept in this case--quickly change it and give us something better. Please you do not have enough time to act, but remember you can easily loose whatever you think you have now.

I wish you all good luck. Fellow coders, please let peace prevail--let us watch the situation for 2 weeks and decide. Peace and Love...

Paul Selormey,
Japan.

I like Ernst Versteeg's thoughts on this matter.

I suggest a mutual effort: www.codemaverick.org.

We should certainly make sure this new site would be owned by an orginization of authors/administrators and not a few individuals.

What's the diff about copyrights? If you all were/are so frickin' uptight about your copyrights, why did you consent to display your code/ let the world use it? Grow up- no one can take away your copyright.
Admittedly, the new site is slower, and I think the use of JAVA in the banner ad slows it down even more so. This site has given ALOT of developers a cool way to communicate with each other. C'mon, people, grow up....

LJP

You missed the boat... it's not a question of who owns the code, it's a questions of REUSE!!

I personally believe that EarthWeb do wish to honor the same environment that Zafir has created here, and once they update their Terms & Conditions to remove any ambiguity, we can all just get back to *****ing about that wavy line.

Best regards and wishes for continued success to Zafir in the future.

Rail

------------
Recording Engineer/Software Developer
Rail Jon Rogut Software
http://home.earthlink.net/~railro/
[email protected]

Mark er earthweb says that they are changing their design. there will
be no wavy line to ***** about. Things are lookin up. Maybe i wont need
that sick bag anymore.

Good luck Zafir,
Of course there are things that upset me.

It never fails. If I try to log in my password is not valid ! My password IS always valid and I have tried to change it several times, but it always fails...

I don't like 112Kbyte transfer just to read a message, my connection transfers at about 9KBytes/Sec so the delay to read something just make it's not worth the effort.

OK I should get a faster connection, I have 128kbs ISDN I feel sorry for the people trying to use this site with 33.6kbs !

Copyright... Well the law is clearly defined. Nobody, not earthweb or anyone. can take it away ( check out the Library of Congress they have it all there )

When you post code into the public domain and add (C)Copyright date name it's a legal statement and is enough to retain copy right ownership until nn (I remember the figure 50) years after departing this world...

If you post code and copyright it ( the old copyright system of sending in code snippets and $20.- still works but the (C)Copyright statement is legal ) then it's up to you to police it.

So, if you don't want to let other people use your code, don't post it.

Zafir, please speed up this site or you will loose visitors...

regards
Hans Wedemeyer

Right on. Everyone one of us would have sold the site too. Personally I'm happy for him, I wish it was me who thought of it but I'm happy for him. The internet has certainly created alot of millionaires and its cool (imo) to see hard work pay off big time. I'm sure one of these cry babies will start their own codeguru's and if the market isnt splintered up enough they'll "sell out" as well.

All comments with the index more than 7927 are lost :-(

OK, now I (we) have message, information that the new post comes to the CG site (in ours mailboxes).
There is now the information where the massage exactly is. BUT it's still not "blued" (like it was). So, I can't simply clicked on it and on that way "parked" at CG->ask question->krba->thema.

Example:
---------------
You can respond to this message by following the URL below
/bbs/wt/showpost.pl?Board=vc&Number=42557&page=1&view=collapsed&mode=threaded&sb=5&category=
===============

Before, I simply as possible go down, click to mice button - and voila.

Thanx.

Well, there's hope that CodeGuru could look better. Remember, SysOpt was also bought out by EarthWeb and it looks about the same, though it's tagged with a EarthWeb logo.

http://www.sysopt.com

sometimes while exploring through the site i am
unable to hit back on my browser (ie4) to go
back where i came from. a simple example is here.
i cannot go back to the main page hitting the back
button on my browser. i understand there is a link
in the corner but this happens at other places where
a link back to the main page would be undesirable.
i want to use my browser like i normally do. i dont want
to have to click links all over the place to get to places
i have already been. Can you fix this please.

Thanks
Marko

ASSERT? You've gotta take a break from the screen!

My point was this. If you set yourself up in a charitable postion to give help to people and encourage others to donate work and effort to
do the same, and then sell out and appear to destroy the overall ethic of the site then people are going to get upset.
I hope the man made his money, and his site traffic goes up. Personally I'd be gutted being a lapdog to another corp after doing it so right
for so long myself.

Deleted because it was a personal attack on someone.

Please get the old look and feel of the web site.

Is there any action that I/we can take if I find out that my articles from codeguru are being published or used in a library at codejock without my name or credit. I belive Kirk fellow has been taking advantage of his position at codeguru to publish his own web site.

I didn't miss the boat, just making a comment. It seemed to me that if people were so worried about about the reuse of their code, why post it to the world? If you think someone stepped on your copyright, enforce it.
...with sails unfurled... LJP

I assume the very small number of new submissions has nothing to do with the acquisition. Since I have no idea what my user name is, or how to set one up, you can reply to:
[email protected]

LJP

My point has nothing to do with the author of the code... it has to do with anyone that wishes to reuse the code from this Site for a commercial application -- the current legal wording doesn't permit that. I suggest you read my earlier posts on this topic.

Best regards & keep both 'em oars in the water.

Rail

------------
Recording Engineer/Software Developer
Rail Jon Rogut Software
http://home.earthlink.net/~railro/
[email protected]

no text

Zafir has run away with our code. A part of this code/comments can be found back at developper.com. I assume Zafir will restore the missing parts and enhance the user interface as requested. Perhaps the ui was bad/not finished by design at the beginning. If he fixes those errors everybody will be calmed down not seeing any longer that the main problem remains: We make the code, a single person/company does make cash with it and can do with the code/rules what they want.

At this state it is possible Zafir and EarthWeb will be satisfied with the code they have. Our code is a like a great book and there will always be enough people surfing around in this 188 MByte museum and consuming banners. And when they don't find our current knowledge they will even surf around more and more. I am sure they will always find new banners... The cash will flow for the next years. The financial calculations are made and i think they are correct. As long as there are no alternatives.

But we developpers have now a big problem: Where do we publish our new code, our modules, our comments now? We now need a simple way to publish our code in a non commercial way. Zafir may add then links to our code. We always appreciate the work he has done for us. So he can make links from his commercial site to our new free site. If he is friendly we can notify him about our changes.

I am interested how all other authors will publish their code from now on.

If we make a restart it is possible we can help ourself, everybody adding his knowledge and or resources. Perhaps somebody does know how this is handled in the linux project with a lot of open source.

Perhaps there are people from (independent) universities, who can help us here. I personally cannot set up something new (i would like it) because the company i work for does sell commercial products. I can only help to make an analysis of our situation and send my code/comments/error fixes to the independent site/library of the future.

The first step, a quick hack: We need to talk independent. Shall i start a email-group? When i get more than 50 responses i will start it. This way we can notify each other about new code/modules/comments for the next time till we can settle down on a free site.

Ernst Versteeg, Switzerland
[email protected]

I haven't seen it posted here yet, so I think you all might be interested in knowing the details surrounding the CodeGuru acquisition. Sound like Zafir hit it big.

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/990803/ny_earthwe_1.html

Thanks,
Joshua Jensen

Hang on a minute - didn't CodeGuru always have banner adverts on every page ? It had to make money some how you know, and I don't see any more adverts on the pages than before.