Ratio of VC/C & VB

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Xeon
. . .
3) No........from what I know, non-Visual C++ IDEs cannot use MFC. MFC comes only with Visual C++, and even if you try to copy the MFC files for use with a non-Visual C++ compiler, it wouldn't work, cos' there's -1000000000000% support for MFC in most of them.
Borland C++, however, has it's own set of class library equivalent to MFC, called the OWL.(Object Windows Library)

:D:)

---

Awk. I have the impression that one of powers of C++ (visual and non-visual) is being able to access libraries such as MFC. Or put the other way around, an impression that these libraries (MFC, OWL, and the likes) are open to any language that support a certain protocol or something.

Well, you could probably use MFC with some other c++ compiler, but it would not be as simple as from within VC++ and you would not be able to sell your application, since you don't necessarily have a licence for the MFC dlls.

Quote:

---

Anyway, from what I know, coding in ASM is already total ****. If you go down any further from ASM, u'll meet the Abyss : Machine Language. I've heard that in the past, coders code in Machine Language directly!!!!!!!
Just plain numbers, which is 1000 times worse than ASM!

---

The founder of my company wrote a Word Processor with syntax highlighting, correct word breaking and some other niceties entirely in Machine Language by looking up the OPCODES in a big table.

Plenty of books (free tutorials) out there for you Xeon ;) If you don't know ASM (which I find hard to believe you seem fairly knowledgable in your posts) then I suggest at least getting a working knowledge of it. It will improve your debugging skills at the minimum.

I still remember going to a 'Introduction to .NET' seminar and all I heard was VB this and VB that. So of course I piped up and asked what about VC++. Answer umm well dead silence of course. And the speaker had the nerve to say, well yea you with .NET you will have a performance impact. And he acted like that was ok, like the whole world is just f'ing groovy man. Lets put some more layers in. Do not attempt to adjust the horizontal we have you under our control. Zombie coders from Microsoft h_e_l_l your next B rated movie. Staring Bill Gates as the evil world ruler with his army of VB and VC coders pent on the worlds destruction thru inefficient software.

I got no beef with VB just you know don't hang VC out to dry.

From Yves M:

Quote:

---

The founder of my company wrote a Word Processor with syntax highlighting, correct word breaking and some other niceties entirely in Machine Language by looking up the OPCODES in a big table.

---

1 possibility : He is God. Need we say more????
My! Yves! U're totally lucky to be in the presence of God! Ohh......u must be the descended Michale the ArchAngel!!!!!!
Ooooo!!!!!!! My respects to you, good Lord! Ohhh.......what do I say in front on the ArchAngel????!!!!!! Ummmm......errr......no no.......Lord.....I haven't been doing anything bad since the day I was born.....eerr.......I did tell naughty lies quite a number of times, but they were all good lies, Lord. And errr......no..I didn't kill or rape.......I only care for gurls......and......errr.....:)

But seriously, it's crazy!!!!!! First, the most basic part about a word processor : the main(overall) window that contains the toolbar/edit control etc.
That's already impossible to create! Imagine drawing the title bar, the borders........it's already gonna take a mere mortal 20 months at least with ML!!!!!! Then, next, you've the minimize, maximize, close button and all their mechanisms.............another 10 months, at least. Next, the rich edit control.......coding a very basic rich edit control from scratch will take any programmer at least 60 months, with all the message maps and basic mechanisms included. Next, syntax highlighting and word-breaking and such.......that'll mean another 15 months.....and when u take into account the toolbars and such......that'll take another 30 months at least. Plus, BUGS. That can easily cost anything from 1 to 4 years.
Hmmm...........your boss must be a 99 year old un-married man, I bet. :):D

From Mick_2002:

Quote:

---

Plenty of books (free tutorials) out there for you Xeon If you don't know ASM (which I find hard to believe you seem fairly knowledgable in your posts) then I suggest at least getting a working knowledge of it. It will improve your debugging skills at the minimum

---

Thanks for boosting my ego, Mick! But I'm poor and have no money for you. :D
But no........I'm not knowledgeable at all. Perhaps I am, compared to 3 year old li'l gurls who play with cute li'l dolls. :)

But then, is it even practical to learn ASM???? I mean, in this world nowadays, we all code in languages higher than ASM, starting from C to Visual Basic.net.
It would be kinda useless and impratical. I guess it's better to use the time to sit next to a **** while watching TV, and stroke her hair.(the hair on the head, not elsewhere. please.) and arouse her. Ohhhhh.........ooooo..............:D

Quote:

---

I still remember going to a 'Introduction to .NET' seminar and all I heard was VB this and VB that. So of course I piped up and asked what about VC++.

---

Yes, yes. The only thing Microsoft ever know now is : We VB this and VB that. These guys really suck, I tell you.

Quote:

---

And the speaker had the nerve to say, well yea you with .NET you will have a performance impact. And he acted like that was ok, like the whole world is just f'ing groovy man.

---

VB this and VB that. VB up and VB down. VB west and VB east. It's all about VB.net nowadays. Darn!
In the past, MSDN magazines used to be filled with really cool C++ stuff and Win32 API(C-style) articles. Now, all u ever see is VB.net, ASP.net and variants of XML stuff. It SUCKS!

The only true C++ stuff u see in the entire filthy magazine is the few pathetic articles, titled "C++ Q & A".

Occasionally, I was thinking that it might be great if Linux buck up it's efforts and provide a good API so that more programmers will program and create programs for the Linux OS.
More importantly, make development as smooth as in the Windows OS. I mean, just pay $$$ and u get the development tools, like in the case of Visual Studio. But in Linux, if I'm not wrong, u have to do some complex license agreement or something. Aye.........

I really hate the idea of those new Microsoft technologies, starting from COM to Managed C++.
These are just very artificial add-ons, the truth is.
Before we even know of such stuff, we don't even need them!

It's like : if a tree fells in a forest and u wasn't there, will u even hear a sound?
No.

Someone please sponsor me and Mick and some coders here with tickets and hotel accomodation to the Microsoft HQ in Redmond. We plan to protest in all our glory of being naked outside the dreaded company.

The slogans are as follows :

---Down with VB.net!!!!
---Rid Artificial Coding!!!!
---We want C++! We want C++! We want C++!
---Give us back the old days!!!!
---God destroy Microsoft!!!!!
---The Lord is with us! Microsoft DOWN! Microsoft DOWN!

Have these glorious slogans written down on a very large cardboard with white background and black markers.(black fonts)

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Yves M:

Occasionally, I was thinking that it might be great if Linux buck up it's efforts and provide a good API so that more programmers will program and create programs for the Linux OS.
More importantly, make development as smooth as in the Windows OS. I mean, just pay $$$ and u get the development tools, like in the case of Visual Studio. But in Linux, if I'm not wrong, u have to do some complex license agreement or something. Aye.........

I really hate the idea of those new Microsoft technologies, starting from COM to Managed C++.
These are just very artificial add-ons, the truth is.
Before we even know of such stuff, we don't even need them!

It's like : if a tree fells in a forest and u wasn't there, will u even hear a sound?
No.

Someone please sponsor me and Mick and some coders here with tickets and hotel accomodation to the Microsoft HQ in Redmond. We plan to protest in all our glory of being naked outside the dreaded company.

The slogans are as follows :

---Down with VB.net!!!!
---Rid Artificial Coding!!!!
---We want C++! We want C++! We want C++!
---Give us back the old days!!!!
---God destroy Microsoft!!!!!
---The Lord is with us! Microsoft DOWN! Microsoft DOWN!

Have these glorious slogans written down on a very large cardboard with white background and black markers.(black fonts)

---

I hear you. COM is an a pathetic attempt at making an OS object aware. You want the problem fixed? Write the OS in C++, do that by writing a self sustaining assembler/compiler that relies on no OS to run. Specificially designed to write an OS. It could be done, to install Linux you have to use a bootstrapped GCC to compile it. You'll never see it from Microsoft, but I can almost guarantee it will happen for another OS in the future. (If noone else does it, 10 - 15 years down the road I will.) But I mean a whole editing environment (the IDE, etc...) and not just compiler/assembler. Only disadvantage to that, is the whole thing would have to be written to the particular CPU it's going on. And that would require writing a compiler/assembler for ANOTHER OS that would 'cross compile' for that purpose. (I wouldn't do it in ML - NFW. The fact you'd have to know the architecture and it's ML and the definition of the assembly instructions (in order to map these to the correct ML output) it would be much easier to break it apart and just write that cross compiler/assembler. Then it could 'logically' written.) Devil's advocate - if it were today - write the 'cross compiler' on some type of X86 (on a Linux or Windows OS, so you have an easier job on the development environment) - learn the architecture of 'pick a CPU' and write the code necessary to implement the compiler/assembler. Then, after probably 3 years or so after all the bugs are worked out, you have an independent compiler/assembler for a particular CPU type. Plus, that would give hardware manufacturers some incentive to create ML compatible machines. ;) I'm only turning 22 next Wednesday, and have 2 1/2 years of C/C++ and some assembly experience (I ain't near as good at assembly as I am C/C++, but I am knowledgable) - I couldn't do it right now, but in 10 - 15 years I will be experienced enough to do so. Knowing how young I am, and already amassed as much as I have without a single course in my life - I know I have unlimited potential. I've been told that all my life, only just recently began tapping it. I ain't gonna waste the opportunity.

This is crazy, James! :)
(by the way, all those quote belongs to me, not Yves M.......look carefully again:))

The thing is : u're a genius! I mean, I can tell u that no one with 2.5 years of programming experience give so much complex details as you can! Definetly, u must have lots of programming knowledge beforehand. Wow! Even folks who have programmed for 3 - 5 years don't seem to be that knowledgeable as you!

Something is wrong........1 confirmation : did u write programs for IBM at age 11????!!!!! Are you from the US??? Does your real name have a 'Gates' behind it? Are your parents in law-related jobs??? Wow! :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

Just wondering, for C++ coders, how long did it take you to be an "expert" in programming for Windows? All your life? And how much time did you have to spend to get to the level that you are right now? 24x7?

And stop using "Can VB write a device driver? C++ can ..." Duh! VB is not meant for that type of applications. It is meant for RAD! When performance and speed can be negotiated why bother using a complex language such as C++ to write something very simple!

And why the b****ing about VB.NET. M$ is merely trying to get the attention of the VB programmers to switch to a much better language now. VB has been their step-child for a very long time and when .NET was born, M$ knew that this will boost up the spirit of VB coders out there.

M$ has not metioned anything (not that I know of) about planning to stop supporting VC++. So what is the problem? Heck! we all know that they can never do that. The OS was built partly with that language. So if you're worry about your job security, don't!

:( Cool Bizs

From CoolBiz :

Quote:

---

Just wondering, for C++ coders, how long did it take you to be an "expert" in programming for Windows? All your life? And how much time did you have to spend to get to the level that you are right now? 24x7?

---

Well, u definetly have to spend lots of time to become a great Visual C++ programmer writing programs for Windows. I was thinking, if I had spent 2 years all my life and direct all my energy to Visual Basic instead, I would have been a very powerful VB programmer now. :)
Although my C++ skills and Visual C++ skills are better than my VB's, compared to the majority of Visual C++ programmers out there, it's pretty poor.
But then, most C++ programmers choose C++ cos' :

1) it boosts your ego
2) it's one the most powerful language ever developed, in terms of speed and power and performance, as well as development time. Development time????!!!! Yes!
Like they say, C++ is a marriage of high level and low level languages.
The development time of writing a program in C++ is not as fast as in VB, but it's certainly much faster than in ASM or ML.
As for speed and power, although ML and ASM is faster than C++, C++ is much faster than all the other languages like VB and Java put together. So, in terms of C++, it absorbs the good and the bad.

U see, in VB, u get fast and rapid development time. But u suffer when it comes to performance and application speed, especially in critical and large programs.
In ASM and ML, sure. It's real darn blazing enough to shatter the universe. But the development time needed is Eternity. Let's face it.
Although C++ has it's own drawbacks, it certainly has lots of pros too. :)

Quote:

---

And stop using "Can VB write a device driver? C++ can ..." Duh! VB is not meant for that type of applications. It is meant for RAD! When performance and speed can be negotiated why bother using a complex language such as C++ to write something very simple!

---

Cool down, CoolBiz! I know u're a truly remarkable VB programmer. Besides, I know u did helped me a lot with my VB school questions a few weeks ago! :)
Well, C++ programmers, when they first started learning C++, they start to have this mindset of always wanting the fastest and the sleekest. I know that cos' my main language is C++ too. In C++ books, u can always see the most extreme algorithms and the most number-crunching techniques etc.
That's why C++ coders always refer you to those examples of device drivers and other speed-critical programs and applications etc. :)

Quote:

---

And why the b****ing about VB.NET. M$ is merely trying to get the attention of the VB programmers to switch to a much better language now. VB has been their step-child for a very long time and when .NET was born, M$ knew that this will boost up the spirit of VB coders out there.

---

The reason is.......if you ever think about the fact that end-users want fast programs, then........but then, you have your own views. I guess, u're right in your own way. ;)

Quote:

---

M$ has not metioned anything (not that I know of) about planning to stop supporting VC++. So what is the problem? Heck! we all know that they can never do that. The OS was built partly with that language. So if you're worry about your job security, don't!

---

Well, they never said they're gonna stop supporting C++, but it's getting dangerous. First, unlike in the past, they have not been actively updating the precious MFC library. There's a few add-ons and bug-fixes in the MFC library that comes with Visual C++.net, but it's all useless and tiny.

Currently, the OS is written with C and C++ and ASM in some parts, not with Visual C++. I don't think they use Visual C++ to create the OS. They must be using some lower level tools.
Anyway, I have a feeling that soon, they'll be using C# or even VB.net to write the OS.........after all........these 2 are THEIR OWN technologies. Microsoft is always heading into this direction : they acquire technologies from others and make it their own. If not, they build their own technologies from scratch and corner the market. :):):):)

I have to go with Visual C++. I have tried to learn VB once but I simply HATE it. I HATE almost everything about it, I hate the syntax, the way it cannot hadle complex data structures. You can't even build a simple componet with it, the simplest you can get is an Active X. It generates baloon code. Dont get me wrong, I'm not starting a war here, some of my best friends are VB programmers (unfortunately), and we get along well. ;)

Look a the pool results, Visual C++ simply rules!

"Vive le compilateur Visual C++"

french for
"Long Lives the Visual C++ Compiler"

Can someone translate this in other languages pls.

Quote:

---

JLafontaine:
I have to go with Visual C++. I have tried to learn VB once but I simply HATE it. I HATE almost everything about it, I hate the syntax, the way it cannot hadle complex data structures. You can't even build a simple componet with it, the simplest you can get is an Active X. It generates baloon code. Dont get me wrong, I'm not starting a war here, some of my best friends are VB programmers (unfortunately), and we get along well.

Look a the pool results, Visual C++ simply rules!

---

I think, the reason why some VC++/C++ programmers hate VB or some VB programmers hate VC++/C++ is not really related to the language or the capabilities but rather to the type of applications that a particular programmer mostly handles. Jlafontaine for example may be dealing a lot with problems on components, devices and similar objects. VB really sucks in that area.

May I ask therefore, what problem domain do we usually dwell into? I'm sure the real picture will easily appear as to why VB or why VC/C++?

As for me, I simply deal with marketing and sales, research and related info services requirements. Not device, component, not hardware access and no system's level call. That's simply the reason why I love VB more than VC/C++.

I don’t really hate VC/C++. In fact I am learning it little by little. But, unless I am threatened of losing my job unless I learn to deal with components, devices and systems' calls, I don’t think I will easily switch side.

Comparing VC/C++ and VB is like comparing fighters and bombers. Technically, both can do the fighting and bombing. But if the objective is control of the sky, why use bombers? On the other hand, if the objective is the ground (as the usual case in winning the war), why rely only on fighters?

Only by substantially discussing the business goal/objective first, then that's probably the only way we can easily tell which among the two is the best programming language.

Quote:

---

JLafontaine:
"Vive le compilateur Visual C++"

french for
"Long Lives the Visual C++ Compiler"

Can someone translate this in other languages pls.

---

"Mabuhay ang Visual Basic:D:D:D(C++) kompayler."

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Xeon
This is crazy, James! :)
(by the way, all those quote belongs to me, not Yves M.......look carefully again:))

The thing is : u're a genius! I mean, I can tell u that no one with 2.5 years of programming experience give so much complex details as you can! Definetly, u must have lots of programming knowledge beforehand. Wow! Even folks who have programmed for 3 - 5 years don't seem to be that knowledgeable as you!

Something is wrong........1 confirmation : did u write programs for IBM at age 11????!!!!! Are you from the US??? Does your real name have a 'Gates' behind it? Are your parents in law-related jobs??? Wow! :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

---

Thing is, I just have a rapid thinking mind, and was working part time during that period. With a 180+ I.Q. I can learn things quite fast and add onto that I have a great capacity for knowledge. I just pushed myself - that's all it takes.

Answers to your questions: (For the :p of it)

1 - No, I didn't program on IBM CPU's at age 11.
2 - Yes, I am from the United States, from the heartland of America, the land of farmer's daughters, the great state of Iowa.
3 - No, my real name is James Bernard Schumacher III.
4 - No, my parents are not in law related jobs - my mom works in hard labor, and my dad's a truck driver.

Not bad for high school dropout (due to life issues) that later got a GED. Although all through elementary and middle school, ITBS and other stuff was pretty much always in the 99% 'tile. In 5th grade, I won my school's spelling bee, etc...

And yes, I do have a life. I work a full time job, and my hobbies include cars, video games, and other stuff. Right now I'm just saving for college, so I can get a degree as a Computer Scientist/Meterologist. All that and I have a mass knowledge of psychology as well - that being just due to life experience. And all of it is held together by a strong spiritual belief in God.

WHAT?????!!!!! 180 I.Q.???????? That'd blazingly CRAZY!!!!!!!
If I'm not wrong, Einstein's I.Q. was around 200++, and yours is 180?????? U're almost the new Einstein!

Li'l wonder why u're talking like those industry experts with just 2.5 years of experience. Crazy! Wild! WOW! :eek: :eek:

And oh....Iowa?? That's the heartland of America??? The more countryside-like face of America? I thought only certain parts of Missouri and the Kansas state are more like the countryside.

And as u say, Iowa is the land of farmer's daughters, so that means.......there must be lots of cute farm gurls for you to enjoy and such........wow........cool! :D:):)

This is a bit off-topic:

I have a copy of MSDN and some of my friends don't have. It is illegal to make a CD copy and give (distribute) to them?

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Xeon
WHAT?????!!!!! 180 I.Q.???????? That'd blazingly CRAZY!!!!!!!
If I'm not wrong, Einstein's I.Q. was around 200++, and yours is 180?????? U're almost the new Einstein!

Li'l wonder why u're talking like those industry experts with just 2.5 years of experience. Crazy! Wild! WOW! :eek: :eek:

And oh....Iowa?? That's the heartland of America??? The more countryside-like face of America? I thought only certain parts of Missouri and the Kansas state are more like the countryside.

And as u say, Iowa is the land of farmer's daughters, so that means.......there must be lots of cute farm gurls for you to enjoy and such........wow........cool! :D:):)

---

No, go north of Des Moines - between Ankeny and Ames, or north of Ames. There's plenty of country side. Go any direction away from Des Moines pretty much and you'll see countryside.

And yes, there are ALOT of cute girls running around (and yes some ARE farmer's daughters. :D )

Then again, most people outside of Iowa just see Iowa on the interstate or Des Moines when they fly in. There is plenty of countryside in this state. (And it's great for chasing, not as good as Oklahoma, Kansas, and the Texas panhandle, but when those meso's come through Iowa - there's plenty of room out here.)

Even Des Moines is small enough that on a day when a big band's tickets go on sale, there are only a handful to several people waiting for the doors to open. Truth be told, only place I'd probably live other than here, is in Oklahoma. (Seeking being a Computer Scientists/Meterologist, and having a big fascination with tornadic activity - there's no wonder why. :cool: )

To keep this on topic - I think a better question to have asked instead of VC++ vs. VB, is a C++ vs. VB vs. Delphi vs. Assembly vs. Java vs. etc.... Talk about languages instead of development environments. Because truth be told, VC++ vs. VB is all about Microsoft - not my cup of tea. (although 99% of all my programming has been done on Windows. Not for much longer though - ;) Although I did go to CompUSA to buy a new compiler yesterday - they didn't have Codewarrior, BC++ Builder, or the VC++ .NET. They did have the whole Visual Studio.NET pro, but I don't want all the rest of the 'crap' - just VC++. Although the guy when I asked him if he had Visual Studio.NET in, and I told him I just wanted the VC++, he came back with VB.NET and I told him "That's not what I want." ) Although I was *tempted* to shell out the $500 bucks for the whole studio - just because it would give me the pro version of VC++ and I'm sick and tired of VC6. Can someone tell me if the pro version is only available in the entire studio? Or can it be ordered separately? Because if I can only get it through the entire studio - I'll shell out the $500 next payday. (I can't deal with standard - in VC6 optimizations weren't in standard. And I am not shelling out the $ for the enterprise version - they can stick that up their @$$.)

Quote:

---

I have a copy of MSDN and some of my friends don't have. It is illegal to make a CD copy and give (distribute) to them?

---

Yes very illeagal.