God and religion

This thread is very interesting, its just that you guys are talking about bible and stuff, I can't join in. but for this one I have a humble opinion to share...

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Originally Posted by cilu

So far, nobody could produce a physical evidence for God.

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Well, for me science is just a prove that human solely relies on their 5 senses, anything beyond that sense is just unreachable for them.. so as a muslim, we believe that GOD is a total different "essence" which any of our senses could not interpret. So if GOD is just infront of you all this while, can you see,touch or feel Him? Does it tell you why can't any human prove any physical evidence for GOD..?

one more thing about 'physical evidence', does it really exists? the physical world as we see it is just an electrical signals passed to our brain as the 5 sense interpret it.. have you thought of what other see is the same as what we see?? I wondered the "Red Ball" I see with my eyes is actually "Red" as others see, other may see it as "Blue", and call it Red..

what I want't to say here is my opinion that the world is just an "Illusion" as stated in the Quran. We were forced to see and feel the physical world as it is now using our senses, who put down all this rule.. obviously I believe its GOD work..

/did any of the above make sense?? :p

Hey Cilu! Are you the one who deleted My post? How dare you abuse your moderating powers! U had better watch out before I sink this whole world together with Romania, k? When that happens, the sins of the world will lay heavy upon your shoulders. :rolleyes:

Good day,
God aka Xeon.

I don't have the time or the desire to analyse the bible as much as some (although I do find other peoples analysis very interesting), but I would like to say this :
- A theory is not a fact - it is a theory. Disproving a previously accepted theory is NOT proof of higher powers.
- Not being able to explain something scientifically, or not agreeing with a scientific explanation is NOT proof of higher powers.

sorry to butt in this discussion...but I think, a religion discussion(their teachings, scripture, etc) will only can take place after both parties had believed in God...because, this kind of discussion is for a God's believer in searching for the true God...before that, a discussion about the God existence should take place...

just giving my opinion though...a fruit came only after the flower had blossomed...

//ah...what the fruit..

I'm also at a loss to understand why this thread dwells so much on the bible - as though the bible can be used to prove or disprove the existence of God. This is no more possible than saying that The Hound of the Baskervilles can be used to prove the existence of Sherlock Holmes.

Max makes an interesting point about Islam and the 5 senses but this still boils down to the same teaching as other religions - namely, that anything we don't understand is evidence of a higher being.

You have to remember that science, as we know it today, is relatively new. The very concept of developing a theory and devising tests for it is only a few hundred years old. Before modern science, religion was how the world was explained to people. Religion was, in every sense, the science of its day and religion taught that if we don't understand something, it's because somebody higher than us doesn't want us to understand it.

Most religions are based entirely on dogma. You believe something because you are told it is true. Nobody has to prove anything. The onus is on the pupil not to question what is taught. It is only through men like Capurnicus and Gallilleo that we now realise WHY we don't understand some things. We don't understand them because we aren't trying hard enough. If you try to understand things, it can be done. It might take a long time and it usually takes special (and talented) men - but you CAN get there. There is no need for dogma in a scientific world.

For example, one of the biggest mysteries of the modern age is dark matter. We know it must exist but no matter what we do, we can't find it. Is this dark matter God? Possibly it is though, in my view, that's very unlikely. Is it some substance that we cannot detect with our 5 senses. That's another possibility though again, I'd say it's unlikely. My personal view is that the theory of dark matter is probably wrong and that some other explanation will be found for it.

But the bottom line remains the same. The fact that the world is full of mystery is in no way evidence for the existence of God. The more that time goes by, the more we realise that we didn't understand things simply because we hadn't looked hard enough.

God was simply a convenient cop-out for those who didn't have the talent to look.

Hi guys! I'm sorry if some of you somehow felt left out because of the "Bible" discussion going on for a while which I am one of the guilty parties. :D

Anyways, that was a good point you shared, Max. And I agree with what mrRee's said too. That's why I said the topic of this thread is "broad" ...

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Originally Posted by John E

But the bottom line remains the same. The fact that we don't understand things is in no way evidence for the existence of God. The more that time goes by, the more we realise that we didn't understand things simply because we hadn't looked hard enough.

God was simply a convenient cop-out for those who didn't have the talent to look.

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I 'kinda agree on the first part of what I quoted here. Because, we do need knowledge and understanding in finding evidence for the existence of God. I'm just not quite sure what you're trying to say with your last sentence though. Are you saying that those people who believe that God exists believes so, simply because they don't have the talent to look?

So I guess the topic we should first focus on is: Does God Exist?

I believe the evidence that God exists are right before our very eyes... on the things around us. Things that we already know about, we study about. If any of you have read my post on the "Creation of Universe" you'll see what I mean.

But I have a proposal:

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One way to determine whether there is a God is to apply this well-established principle: What is made requires a maker. The more complicated the thing made, the more capable the maker must be.

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What do you guys think? :D

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Originally Posted by che-rish

What do you guys think?

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well,yes :confused:

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Originally Posted by Max Payne

we believe that GOD is a total different "essence" which any of our senses could not interpret

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IMO sometimes humans can feel things which is not explainable but any physical explanations

I don't know if you guys beleive in this or have any experiment from yourself or other people

i.e..I sleep tonigh,in my asleep I see some scenes in detaile,in the morning I wake up and everything is normal(ah no final examl!)
after a while all the things I had seen in my asleep happen very exactly and presiosly in detail :confused::confused:
these are kind of asleeps happen countless of times and very exactly for many people with different believs which can't be deniable(I don't know if there is an equvalent in english for such asleeps or if you believe in this I said)

you see feature in such asleeps in detail !,such asleeps can't be explained with physical things or by our 5 senses,but it shows humans can feel non-physical things :confused::confused:

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Originally Posted by mehdi62b

well,yes :confused:

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With that smilie, you don't look so sure... ;) :D

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Originally Posted by che_rish

Are you saying that those people who believe that God exists believes so, simply because they don't have the talent to look?

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Essentially yes - although I'm referring mainly to religious teachers and I'm not talking about the people of today. I'm referring to the days before modern science when pupils were expected to accept what they were taught and never to question it. Religious teaching methods have become more enlightened - but they're still a long way behind scientific teaching methods.

We now understand that to accept things without questioning them is lazy and counter-productive. It doesn't help people to understand their world and, as a teaching methodology, it tends to be favoured by the less talented teachers. You would never find this kind of teaching in a modern university, for example. But we mustn't lose sight of the fact that up until a few hundred years ago, this kind of teaching was well established and accepted. It's only now that we can recognise it as being wrong.

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Originally Posted by che_rish

But I have a proposal.

One way to determine whether there is a God is to apply this well-established principle: What is made requires a maker. The more complicated the thing made, the more capable the maker must be.

What do you guys think? :D

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Well, snowflakes are so complicated that no two flakes are ever the same - but they don't require a maker.

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Originally Posted by mehdi

you see feature in such asleeps in detail !,such asleeps can't be explained with physical things or by our 5 senses,but it shows humans can feel non-physical things

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You mean you can predict the future in your dreams?? whoaahhh we found ourself 'The Oracle' :D..

sorry mehdi,to be serious, I never know that you could dream and see the future?? but I have experienced "Deja Vu".. in fact most people would have experienced it..

//I use a lot of things from The Matrix, cause I believe we leav in the Matrix like world..;)

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Originally Posted by John E

Essentially yes - although I'm referring mainly to religious teachers and I'm not talking about the people of today. I'm referring to the days before modern science when pupils were expected to accept what they were taught and never to question it. Religious teaching methods have become more enlightened - but they're still a long way behind scientific teaching methods.

We now understand that to accept things without questioning them is lazy and counter-productive. It doesn't help people to understand their world and, as a teaching methodology, it tends to be favoured by the less talented teachers. You would never find this kind of teaching in a modern university, for example. But we mustn't lose sight of the fact that up until a few hundred years ago, this kind of teaching was well established and accepted. It's only now that we can recognise it as being wrong.

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Ah, now I understand what you mean. :)

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Originally Posted by John E

Well, snowflakes are so complicated that no two flakes are ever the same - but they don't require a maker.

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Yes, two flakes are never the same... just curious (and not a trick question)... snowflakes are... frozen H20, right? :confused: How did snowflakes come to be again?? I know I read this somewhere.. but do you know off-hand?

EDIT: I'm sorry John E, I am so lazy to even google it up right now...:blush:

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Originally Posted by cherish

But I have a proposal.

One way to determine whether there is a God is to apply this well-established principle: What is made requires a maker. The more complicated the thing made, the more capable the maker must be.

What do you guys think? :D

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hmm interesting. Everything exists in this world is Created and must have a Creater. I totally agree with this.. :thumb:

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Well, snowflakes are so complicated that no two flakes are ever the same - but they don't require a maker.

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i don't get this...:confused::confused:

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Originally Posted by MaxPayne

i don't get this...:confused: :confused:

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I think what he meant was... can you make a snowflake?? No we can't.. although I'm not sure if there was an experiment made to produce snowflakes. But seriously, Snowflakes are produced by nature, like how rains are produced... up, up there in the sky. :)

// Please excuse my lack of use of scientific terms. :blush:

Yes, that's what I meant. Snowflakes are very intricate structures and yet they form naturally by themselves without the need for someone to make them. You're right to say that everything that is made requires a maker - but not everything that exists has to be made. In fact, the vast majority of things that exist in nature are not 'made'. They develop naturally.

Way back in this thread I descibed my personal view that any creature who was good at recognising patterns and who also had an inate belief in "luck" would inevitebly invent the concept of God at some stage in it's existence. It's only my personal view but for me, there is much stronger evidence that man invented God, rather than God invented man.

But religion and God are not the same thing. What religion does is that it exploits peoples' belief in God for the purpose of acquiring power and wealth. And it keeps hold of that power over people by demanding that the followers of religion never question what they are taught.

Karl Marx was right when he described religion as "the opium of the masses". It is exactly that - a drug that is used to hook and subdue the majority so that a small minority can make money out of them.

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Originally Posted by Max

You mean you can predict the future in your dreams??

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no,no,no,no,I can't,I didn't mean the power of prediting the feature and such ludicrous things,don't take my meaning incorrectly.but I beleive humans can feel non physical things
PS:I don't learn any relegious thing from my univ,..mainly there is no learning on such things in my univ!
there was just one cource which passed by joking,his teacher was always absent,you see!
I myself had some researches on such things.