College or No College :: Future

Hi.

I met C++ in September 2001. We immediately found a common interest in software design and implementation.

I am currently a senior at a college. I am way behind schedule though. My goal is to graduate within four years and no more. However, I ran behind a long the way because I have to take courses that are not related to programming and some courses have to be taken in a certain order. I will not graduate until after Fall 2003. Anyways, I really want to work on real software projects and not pay for an education I could get just via books from Amazon.com.

I am confident in my ability to learn any material related to computer science from hardware to software, and especially programming C/C++, Windows, and Winsock, 16-bit, 32-bit, 64-bit ASM. From my perspective, anything is possible. You just need to buy a book! Heck, college professors use the same books I could buy from Amazon. I have studied from books that they found difficult including MFC, Winsock, and Windows programming. My concern is really why do you have to pay so much money ($$$) for an "education" you could get via books from Amazon.com?

Please understand I am not boasting. I just feel that I am in a situation now where college is and will slow my progress as a programmer and it is and will continue to fade that passion and desire I have for software design and implementation. I want to work on real projects including real problems and real applications. The project we do are jokes. For example, the professor in an OOP C++ course I am required to take does not like me because I rush the class. The class does not teach me anything as far as software design and implemention. Everything comes from C++ How to Program by Deitel&Deitel which I read a year ago!

I would like to know the importance of a college degree specifically computer science. For example, let say two applicants apply for the same entry position. One applicant has a BS in CS, but has no experience working on real applications ourside of college (note employers do not know this). The second applicant has very good experience for an entry position and can get the job done if given an opportunity. What do you think will happen?

Many "successful" people are college-dropouts including Bill Gates and Michael Dell. I have no problem staying in college; however, I honestly feel it is slowing my progress as a programmer. I really do. How do *you* know when it is time to call it quit?

Thanks,
Kuphryn

Three points:

1. You'll learn more at a job than you ever will in school.
2. That piece of paper is worth a lot of money and will give you more oppurtunities.
3. Every interviewer will ask you why you quit college. There's no good answer to a question like that.

I suggest you finish school.

Jeff

Okay. Thanks.

Money is really never my concern. Really. I really enjoy what I do. I do not plan to apply to only "big buck" jobs. I want to work in an environment where I get to work with people who enjoy software design and implementation just like myseft.

I have another question.

I will probably stay, NOT because I want to stay, but because of fear. What is the best way to improving my experience as a software engineer? I am working on projects including MFC and Winsock. What can I do to improve my experience "on the side" or "hidden" as only employers will recognize it because I now very well by now professors do not care.

Kuphryn

I would like to know the importance of a college degree specifically computer science. For example, let say two applicants apply for the same entry position. One applicant has a BS in CS, but has no experience working on real applications ourside of college (note employers do not know this). The second applicant has very good experience for an entry position and can get the job done if given an opportunity. What do you think will happen?


The first applicant will be considered.
The second applicant might be considered if the employer is not too tired to bother look at the resume, but it is not safe.

If the second applicant is noticed, it will get an interview, and based on his/her knowledge might actually be hired. However, the employer will likely offer less money than if the applicant had a diploma.



Many "successful" people are college-dropouts including Bill Gates and Michael Dell. I have no problem staying in college; however, I honestly feel it is slowing my progress as a programmer. I really do. How do *you* know when it is time to call it quit?


These are exceptions. I'm not saying everybody without a diploma is not successful, he/she is just less likely to be.
Ask yourself why studying is slowing you as a programmer. If it is so easy, then why are you whinning? Just do the exams and homework! If it is because you have a hard time succeeding, then maybe you HAVE something to learn!!!!

From your comment, you seem to fall in the category of "bored but clever". Then, just do the exams, homework, don't attend class and work on cool projects during daytime. How about that?

Quote:

---

Originally posted by kuphryn
What is the best way to improving my experience as a software engineer? I am working on projects including MFC and Winsock. What can I do to improve my experience "on the side" or "hidden" as only employers will recognize it because I now very well by now professors do not care.

---

Best way of gaining experience? Self-explanatory. Experiment!

Code, design, make mistakes.

Work on different type of projects. Databases are different from web based apps and they are also different from engineering apps or real-time apps or... and the list goes on and on.

Other way of learning? Ask questions. Preferably to an experienced programmer or software designer who can give you tips about how to do things.

I personally learn a lot from watching others code.

Thanks.

You are right on. I study for all classes completely via books. I only take notes if the material is not in a book, which is rare.

Really, the problem I am in really comes down to time. I have two choice, one is to go through the "procedure" and play the system; however, I could lose valuable time where I could be working on real projects with other programmers and software engineers. On the other hand, I could look for an intern position and if I get it, I will definitely not be able to graduate anytime soon. A typical internship asks for 20-30 hours a week.

I have no problem with college. I just want the professor to move faster and teach at a rate that all computer science students *should* be taught and not some average time-table. Furthermore, they do not give out real project such as real applications. For example, consider a software project such as a real game where we maybe half the class work as a team.

Kuphryn

I understand your position. Although I myself needed school to get through in life (and still need it!) :rolleyes:

Maybe the problem then is the school. Maybe you need to find a school that suits you. Have you tried to apply to other colleges or universities abroad?

Anyway, if you are like me, you didn't have the choice but to go to the local college/university out of $ concerns, mostly ;)

I feel you should really play the system as it will pay down the road.

And as I pointed out in my previous post, you can always kick yourself in the butt and have a tight schedule and run a project for yourself. Don't tell me you don't have time for that. If you think that, stop watching TV, stop doing useless stuff on the internet (but keep checking codeguru!!!) and get your *** in gear mister! ;) I know what I'm talking about. I'm working full time right now and doing my masters degree part time. It is hard work, but I know it will pay off eventually.

Your only enemy is your motivation (or lack thereof).

Good luck! :p

Thanks.

I understand that employers places great emphasis on a college degree. However, to this day I still do not understand the reason behind it.

1) College graduates do not "give up." Okay. Yes, maybe the they stayed and finished their degrees. However, how can you judge someone without giving the person a real shot at the job? Furthermore, I am even more perplexed as far as the fact (or myth) that college graduates can "demand" more money. What kind of a system is that? I have a college degree, so I should get more money and do less work. Let the people without college degrees work!

2) College graduates are "smart." Ahhh. I definitely believe that is a myth. There are extremely intelligent people who do not care about college. To be honest, I do not see myself as "smart." All I can say is that my classmates at my college do not impress me. Well, only a dozen or so who are in the ACM team are quit impressive. Educate any normal person and the outcome is the same.

Kuphryn

Quote:

---

Originally posted by kuphryn
Thanks.

I understand that employers places great emphasizes on a college degree. However, to this day I still do not understand the reason behind it.

---

Unfortunately, although I agree with you the emphasis is not always justified, it is a matter of fact. That's how it is nowadays, you either try to change it, which is impossible, or you live with it.
That's something you'll have to accept. You'll find that in your everyday work, the best solution for most people is the fastest (thus less costy) solution. If the person who hires in the company decides to search for a computer scientist, his/her task is so much simpler if he/she decides that the candidate must at least have a degree in comp. sc. Of course, this might be overkill for the job, but it insures that she'll get "ofiicially" worthy candidates. Although some incompetent graduates might end up in the roll of interviews. *shrug*

Quote:

---

1) College graduates do not "give up." Okay. Yes, maybe the they stayed and finished their degrees. However, how can you judge someone without giving the person a real shot at the job?

---

They don't judge the person, they simply dismiss him/her on the assumption that as a whole, they are wasting their time looking for someone who doesn't have a degree, but has an equivalent experience. It's a matter of statistics. If 10% of people without a degree are potential good candidates, this means that if they look for somebody without a diploma, they'll waste 90% of their time, whereas, if only 10% of persons with diplomas are bad at what they do, they only waste 10% of their time. Time is money. Money rules the world (Ok... not only money, sex too :D )

Quote:

---

Furthermore, I am even more perplexed as far as the fact (or myth) that college graduates can "demand" more money. What kind of a system is that? I have a college degree, so I should get more money and do less work. Let the people without college degrees work!

---

That's just as illogical as the fact that some young employees work more, faster and work overtime and get paid less when older employees do 9-5 and are outdated yet make twice as much as you do. Experience pays. That's dumb, but that's how society work. Can't change that unfortunatly.

It also has to do with offer and demand. There is less bachelors graduate than undergraduate, there are less master degree graduates than bachelors graduates and there is less Ph.Ds than master degree graduates. As you go up in the hierarchy, your market value rises. Simple.

Quote:

---

2) College graduates are "smart." Ahhh. I definitely believe that is a myth. There are extremely intelligent people who do not care about college. To be honest, I do not see myself as "smart." All I can say is that my classmates at my college do not impress me. Well, only a dozen or so who are in the ACM team are quit impressive. Educate any normal person and the outcome is the same.

---

That is entirely true. However, employers go with the assumption that the colleges and universities do not graduate people that don't fullfil the requirements for a degree. To an employer, someone with a degree is like having an insurance policy, the guarantee being the college or university reputation. Whether this is the truth or not is a matter of debate. However, from experience, people with some kind of a degree tend to have better skills as a whole, as opposed to be very skilled at very little part of a subject.

Again, just my opinion :)

I acknowledge your points.

I agree with the your overall "statistical" analysis. Agree or not, people with college degrees do have to at least go to class once or twice to take exams. That is hard work!!!

Kuphryn

I feel your pain :D

Hi there,

For my two cents worth, I would recommend finishing your course.
Your views about the real value of the piece of paper my be right but atleast the piece of paper shows employers 1) That you have the self discipline to start and finish something of significant effort, even if the only significant variable you see is your time and 2) It is a base line qualification employers can use to make the first cut of CVs and may do just that when comparing you to others for a job.

If you really want to get going coding real projects and moving beyond the text books then look at the many open source projects at http://www.gnu.org/ or http://savannah.gnu.org/ for example. There are many significant projects underway there including game development which you mentioned in one of your emails. You will not earn any money doing this but you have a chance to work on real software solutions and together with very experienced technologist in many cases. It is also something you could then add to your CV or resume when you start looking for a job as real experience.

I wish you luck.

Kevin

Okay. I appreciate your thought.

You and all other members all share the same thought about the importance of a degree from an employer's perspective. That is not my call and is something that every employees have to get used to.

Looking from an employer's perspective, I do understand the importance of a college degree. One reason and is something I appreciate about college as well is that college forces students to learn subjects they would otherwise not study or even know they exist. College produces "well-rounded" people. Maybe I do not know "1 + 2 = 3," but because of college I know that "a + b = c" does exists.

You asked another of my question about finding projects to work on. I know about GNU but have not considered looking into working on GNU projects. I will definitely visit their website.

Kuphryn

to the original poster:

dude you have no clue on what the real world is like for a software engineer. its kinda of funny how naive you are actually.

for one thing, you will never get a girl because there are almost none in this field. second, you will get sunburn from sitting in front of a monitor glow all day long (9-10 hrs a day). third you will forget how to speak normally because you'll be too used to saying thins like "the dcx is not responding across the bipolar crosshash multiplatform acg we need 2.2 version 3.45x T2 modular wavetables of di-flops" etc. (pretty good eh?). the pay is great though.

anyway, in summary. finish school. if anything in life, you can tell people you're educated ok?

Okay. Thanks.

kbomb987,

Hey. I do not mind design software and implementing solutions for 13-14 hours a day. If it were up to me, I never want to communicate with real people except via forums and design and implement software applications until I can no longer open my eyes.

You brought up and interesting point about how a college degree offers a person respect from her/his peers. I definitely agree, but again I cannot understand the reason and logic behind it.

"Hey, you should like me because I have a college degree. I am educated. I have no idea how I can and *will* contribute to mankind, but hey, I HAVE A COLLEGE DEGREE."

Kuphryn

There are people who have a Ph. D. and are ignorant and idiots.
There are people who don't have a degree, yet are quite aware of their surroundings and quite skillful.

A degree will not change a person.

But as a "passport" a diploma (or a couple of diploma ;) ) is the best tool you can get that differentiates yourself from "The Others (tm)".

Don't think you'll be a better person because you have a diploma (or not). A diploma just asserts what you've accomplished. That's all, nothing less, nothing more.

People will still eventually judge you by your work, no matter what.

Words cannot describe how much this statement brightens my spirit. If everyone thinks like that then college *degree* would be an option instead of a necessity for professionals.

"Don't think you'll be a better person because you have a diploma (or not). A diploma just asserts what you've accomplished. That's all, nothing less, nothing more. "

Kuphryn

I never went to college. Didn't have the need to. But I did get lucky starting off at a great company. This was years ago. I've never been turned down because I don't have a degree. People look at my experience which is quite varied and the companies I've worked for and what I have accomplished. If your almost done with college I say keep going. If I were to interview you it would concern me that you started something but didn't finish it.

As far as the comment about salary and degrees. I've never experienced that. I've been making more money than my degree'd counterparts since 95. Not that I care what anyone makes, it's all about if I feel I'm being compensated fairly. I'm probably just lucky. But I've hired quite a few people that don't have degrees. My only requirement is that the person is sharp, learns fast and won't be bothering me every second with the same question. I'd rather have that than a degreed person that doesn't have a clue. Mostly if I hire someone fresh outta college I tell them to forget everything they have learned and show them how things really work. Colleges IMHO are so far behind the real world trends that sometimes it does more damage than good.

One day I'll go to college and get my degree. I'll presumably get to skip alot of computer related classes due to my experience. But I'd be more looking forward to refreshing my math/english skills.

One thing I notice that is different from myself and degree'd indiviuals is I think very differently than they do. It seems that alot of people coming out of college don't think outside the box. But that's just my personal experience. I'm not saying I'm better than anyone. Indiviuals are individuals.

So stay in college or at least go part-time and get some real world skills working for some company. Companies are real flexable these days with continuing education.

Anyways that's my 2 cents.

Okay. Thanks.

I believe you are correct about employers accepting part-time college students.

You mentioned that newly graduated students not thinking of of the box. Can you elaborate on what you meant?

Kuphryn

That's a tuff one to answer. I guess I mean they seem so structured and not as creative. Alot of times tenative. Take the bull by the horns or as they do in montana...testicles.


You say tomato, they say tomoto. I say ketchup.

You brought up a very interesting topic reflecting on college "structured" versus "street" experience. Believe there are multiple ways to "succeed" is whatever we do. In general, there are two ways paralleled to the two concepts I mentioned.

To this day, I do not understand which concept is better. Maybe none is best. Maybe they are all the same.

For example, should we use thousands of years of research to know that fire is hot? On the other hand, another way to find out fire is hot take less than a second via experiment and gain experience.

I just do not know!

Kuphryn

Yea. There have been times where a little structure would have helped me out in coding, bug hunting. But there are times when because of my 'street experience' (as you call it) I've resolved issues far faster than a structured person would have. So there are pro's and con's to both sides. But then I have the luxury of going to school when I choose. I wouldn't advise anyone to try and get a entry level position today without a degree. It was easier IMHO back in the early 90's when I got my break.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Mick_2002
That's a tuff one to answer. I guess I mean they seem so structured and not as creative. Alot of times tenative. Take the bull by the horns or as they do in montana...testicles.

You say tomato, they say tomoto. I say ketchup.

---

But this has nothing to do with the fact that they went to college or not. I've seen both type of persons having the same character traits as you describe, both from colleges. It has to do with the type of "creativity" both have. Some have a "scientific" approach to creativity, others have an "exploratory" approach. Both have advantages and disadvantages. It is true that people that are college drop outs tend to have the "exploratory" approach as the other one didn't fit them, but it is not a clear cut between college and the character traits your observe.

There are different ways to express creativity.

Anyway, that's from my experience.

Yea that's why I said "But that's just my personal experience" ;) In my original post that prompted his question.

Also, faster is not always better.

Faster means faster access to market, but it usually also means bad coding and high maintenance costs.

Whereas the slower more structured approach might take longer, but it usually means better design and reduced maintenance costs.

Exploratory creativity tends to be faster, although it is NOT always the case, in which case you really lost a lot. You take a lot of time and the code is crap.

Structured creativity is slower, but it is an iterative process of trying to find the right solution before beginning to code.

I tend to prefer structured creativity. But emotions get in the way sometimes and you end up exploring a lot anyways.

BTW, these two character traits are what I believe the big challenges in the IT related companies. Both approach are sometimes very far apart and it can lead to tension between colleagues. Lots of arguments, lots of hair pulling.

I know. I've been there :)

Faster is sometimes better, slower is sometimes not ;) I think it's a matter of a individuals strengths. I can design fast and code fast when needed. I doesn't mean the code has been designed bad or buggy. That's what functional verification testing/unit testing is all about. Anything I release is zero defect. I can't recall a time in 12 years that any of my code has had a bug reported on it. It must be me lucky charms.

I do agree with the tension part stemming from two different philosophical approaches. Been there done that. But I'm not the one pulling the hair out (yea I still got all mine) :)

You are right.

Unit testing can prevent common errors and defects.

However, it doesn't address design issues.

Which is the biggest problem down the road.

I'm not saying fast programmers are bad. I'm just raising a flag, because usually, it means they haven't thought out their solution.

;)

Yea I'd say a middle ground is the best. Now for design issues. That's where your peers come in. Getting into the habit of reviewing other peoples designs and code and having yours reviewed by other fellow developers reduces the chances of a faulty design getting out. People always *groan* when I talk about that. I really don't understand that. The goal is to make the best product you can.

you can always look for Summer internships which would give you real project experience for real applications. As for boring school life, I recommend getting a programming related job during the semester. I know it can be done cause I know somebody who's doing it right now, but it is really very hard to find a compatible job (but probably not in big colleges .. mine college isn't big).

anyway, I'm also a student planning to graduate slightly later on, May 2004. Right now I'm trying to find internship for Summer 2003. Can I post my resume here to get review or something ? Any body can recommend a good place to find internship positions ? Thanks.

-Nik

I have full confidence in my abilities as a programmer even without a college degree. I feel uncertained because of the fact that I do not like to deal with people. Please understand I am not talking about friends. I believe there is a time for fun and a time to get the job done. The two do not mix. In summation, I have trouble "communicating" with employers. Or should I say "selling myself?" I could work anywhere and company status is not important. I would prefer they leave me alone in my own room or a room with a few other dedicated real programmers.

Kuphryn

We have created machines that deliver information in a kaleidoscope of formats (text, images, animations, video, sound, etc.).
Education is delivering this information to those who want to learn it.
Yet we still spend BILLIONS on constructing buildings for "students" to come to.
And we charge them ungodly amounts (at least in Amerika) for the "privilege".

Everything that schools now do, including the verifications of knowledge by exams, can be done on a computer. Interaction with knowledgable people for questions is simple. Presentations can be MUCH more intuitive with the use of proper multimedia (instead of those static whiteboards). And if you are motivated and can learn a course in three weeks instead of three months, its trivial to test. You can tailor your education precisely. You can learn from the best posted courses anywhere, instead of getting stuck with professors that may know less than you do, and you can use referrals to these "great standards". Exams could actually test knowledge by being more interactive and dynamic.

But here is the problem. Many older people view college less as a learning experience and more of a right-of-passage (hazing anybody?). Just look at some of the above posts. It "shows commitment" (to doing meaningless work). And more importantly, it is a HUGE business. Sure, putting it all online would still be a business endeavor, but look at all the lost jobs in the process (re: the recent west coast dock workers strike). The biggest payoffs would be transferred to the educators that create great multimedia learning programs, and not Principles and Deans and other admins.

Sure, there is still hands on work that needs to be available, particularly in engineering, the sciences, and the arts, but this has been shifting to job training for the last 30 years or so and is more and more becoming easily financeable by the corporations that would employ you.

I feel for you kuphryn. I once dropped out of school for similar reasons to those you posted, but I soon found that I was only "qualified" for a factory job making 8 bucks an hour, even though I had material that could be published in mathematics and physics journals... Finally, I went back and finished up my degree, and even though it is in a completely unrelated field, found it much easier to get a programming job. Ever since I got out of college, though, there is one thing that is for sure. I definitely have more time available now to learn.

I have to agree that having that pretty piece of paper does make a difference. Of the companies I know of, they would either prefer or would only hire people with a diploma. Although I'm not sure the diploma necc. needs to be in the field of computers.

I know the department I work in will only hire people with a college degree. Some departments in my company don't allow promotions (like joing research groups) unless you have higher degrees. Does any of this make sense? I don't necc. think so. Luckily the company I work is also beginning to realizing this.

As its already been mentioned, I've also met people with a masters or PHD who I didn't persieve as any more qualified than someone with a BS or no colledge degree.

Every college (university) has a different curriculum. I've noticed that some colleges are better than others. I percieve this one university near me as having a poor computer science program. This possibly bad perception is based on the graduates/coops/interns I've interviewed.

But I found some people comming from this university to be very knowledgeable and smart, etc. So I think... why? My 5 minute theory is that what people get out of college depends on them. Some people put in the extra effort by joining research groups, grad/undergrad assistance, interns, coops, exploring on thier own, etc.... And other just go to class, take tests, and learn only what they have to.

I got an internship my sophmore year. The internship turned into a job that lasted the rest of the schools years. Looking back, I learned more at the job (Ex: software engineering, testing, documentation, coding, working with others, designing, etc...)than I did at school . And the experience looked very good on my resume. :)

So what did I get out of college? Mainly structured learning of the basic foundations. Data Structures(!!), Software Engineering foundation, OO Design (although the class stunk), mathmatics, english classes (being able to write good design documents is important), other classes/things that got me away from the computer (also important :cool: ), etc...

I think the foundations (for example: data structures) is a must. If you can learn this stuff on your own, outside of school, cool! Back in my college years, I needed the structured learning of school. :o

So whats my point with all of this? hhmm.. I think I have a point?? :D :D
a) I think the diploma is important.
b) I also think that if you find your college too easy/boring, maybe its their computer science program (???). Maybe (???) explore other schools ??????
c) Make the most of college. Look into interning, coop, research, etc... Stuff like this will give you good experience and look good on the resume.

my 2 cents....

Okay. Thanks.

I will graduate! I will get the degree even if it only symbolizes a "passport" to job interviews.

As I mentioned that the stuff they teach in college come directly from books. I can read computer science books easily and learn quickly. My C++ design and implementatiion experience while learning *on my own* positively affects my ability to learn new and different software design tools. Rather than looking for a job now, I will study software design and other programming tools including more advanced C++, Win32 ASM, and COM. I figure that since I have to go to college, I might as well use the free-time wisely.

Listing knowledge of and experience with MFC, Win32 API, Win32 ASM, and COM might not mean much to many interviewers, but it cannot hurt either. My goal is to walk into a job with at least fundamental knowledge and experience to understand a project and know where to start.

Kuphryn

Quote:

---

I feel uncertained because of the fact that I do not like to deal with people. Please understand I am not talking about friends. I believe there is a time for fun and a time to get the job done. The two do not mix. In summation, I have trouble "communicating" with employers. Or should I say "selling myself?"

---

Hmmm....is it only me who sees a problem here?

I'm one of those who spent the first 18 years of my working life without a degree. I *know* I was good at my job (whatever my job was at any particular time), because I have a sh*tload of commendations/references/awards from each job. Trouble is, I could never 'get ahead' - no promotions, no "salary" (hourly worker only) etc etc.

Then, after getting the big D-I-V-O-R-C-E, I figured out that I *could* actually afford to go off to university and get a degree. I figured out that I had a bit of a talent for programming (one of the courses I took had a bit of pascal programming), and managed to write a database system for a major worldwide vehicle manufacturer, which saved them approx $1.2 million dollars a year. Well, I went to uni, got my degree, and all of a sudden, I was getting headhunted. People and companies that I'd either worked for, or had applied for jobs with them, suddenly wanted me to come and work for them. HA! Now the boot was on the other foot....and believe me, its a great feeling.

Anyway, the above quote seems to emphasise something to me, speaking as both an employee, and a business owner. I don't care how good a programmer is, if he can't interact with me, other programmers, or in some cases, the user(s) and customer(s), then he will NEVER be employed by me. He will never even make it to an interview - or if he does, he'll have a long way to go to convince me to employ him.

Teamwork is vital in software development - as you will find out when you get into some of your software engineering projects. Interacting with other students, lecturers, prospective employers etc is absolutely vital to your future job prospects.

Oh - always be friendly and open when you're talking about work or programming....you never know whether the person you meet in the pub/on the street/at a dinner etc could be a future employer. I've managed to get one job by talking to a guy I met at a political dinner....apparently I manged to impress him so much, he called me the following day and offered me a job!

So, I guess that if you follow my experiences, you'll be staying in Uni and getting your degree. Hopefully you'll interact with other people in your course, and at your uni a little bit more to become more "well rounded" as someone else mentioned earlier.

Good luck!

Oh yeah - something else I forgot to mention. I'm currently working as a contractor, and moving from industry to industry. In the last two years, I've done programs for :

- Mass transport industry
- Financial Planning industry
- Natural Gas wholesale industry
- Telecommunications industry
and in the past 10 years before that....
- Motor vehicle manufacturing industry
- Police force (only did templates here, not programming - unfortunately)

I am getting so much more out of my work now - I'm constantly learning new stuff about new industries....relating past experience into stuff I do today...there really is no comparing life before the degree, to life after it. For once in my life, I'm feeling quite content - like I don't have to keep searching for something.

FYI - I guess you're a little like me, kuphryn, - I dropped out of high school when I was 15 because I was bored....but I sucessfully completed my degree when I was 37.

Okay. Thanks.

I want to clear up one point. I mentioned about communication with other people. I have enjoy communication with friends and people I know. When I said I did not like to "deal with people," I meant that I did not want to be bothered when working on a project. I work better in a quiet setting where I can think.

Yes, I will definitely stay and get my degree. One key reason I asked the questions in this thread was the fact that I found the materials I am studying not challenging enough. As of the past week, I have decided to buy books that will utimately futher my knowledge, understanding, and experience with respect to more advanced C++, sofware design, and soon COM.

I am not bored aslong as there is something fun an exciting to learning.

Kuphryn

It seems the evolution of the universe is more advanced than I had thought. Can't believe I missed this announcement!

http://ocw.mit.edu/index.html

Maybe there is hope for mankind.

Definitely No-College. Real programmers learn by books.

NOT.

"Stay at school" man ;) By all means do !

I will finish college.

Kuphryn

I am assuming you attend some night school or one of those technical institutes advertised on TV. You keep rerferring to learning 'Winsock" and "MFC" in school. A bachelor's in CS is supposed to teach you more about computer science theory, a litte bit of software design and not that much actual languages and technologies. With sufficient background in theory and architecture you should be able to learn any language or API quickly.

No. I do not go to a technical college.

You mentioned the following, "With sufficient background in theory and architecture you should be able to learn any language or API quickly." You would be surprise at the number of college graduates in computer science who know little about software design and implementation.

Look there are two fundamental forms of computer science: theory and design and implementation. Computer science theorists, from my perspective, are mathematicians who analyze programming algorithms such as search speed of a sorting algorithm. An excellent example is Donald E. Knuth of Stanford University.

The second form of computer science is design and implementation (i.e. programmers) and we specialize primarily in software design and implementation.

I understand the importance of theory and agree that programmers should understand the theories behind computer science. Nonetheless, I strongly feel that programmers should understand and have experiences designing and implementing software.

I spoke to professors and few understand the fundamental of "API," "Winsock," or "MFC," as you pointed out.

Kuphryn

They don't have to know the details of an implementation. Rather, they should know how to built such an implementation, so that you understand how it works and not merely "use" these.

There is not 2 Comp. Sc. There is Comp. Sc. :)

It consists of (among others) math, logic, architecture, design, paradigms and code. To be truly polyvalent, you have to be at least knowledgeable if not an expert in all of these fields.

A Comp. Sc. bachelor is not much specialized in any of these particular fields. Although one can be more proficient with any one of these.

As for the lack of real life experience, I must agree with you. Universities and colleges tend to focus on theory and leave little place for practice. This is unfortunate, but that's when you have to compensate with extra curricular activities.

Now you should understand the importance of "Winsock" and "MFC." We know the theories, now let see what we can do with those theories.

Kuphryn

when i read what u said .the feeling is that u must clever ,but what u waht to think is that u should find a way to solute the
problem u faced.
i think u should adapt uself to the college.if u don't change it.
and i don't think u find no opportunity to improve u experience in college.