finding relation ship or algo b/w 2 numbers

hello members

i wanna ask a question from u personalities ...

the question came into my mind and i m trying to clear the scenario here ...

v have a set of numbers let suppose
set 1
254587
25458796

set 2
548754
54548554

set 3
54a5e84
e24d8e1s5

set 4
e8a7e5d
2ad8e25d4d


these numbers are generated from the same algo or same techniques, and theres a reltion exists b/w these numbers of each set

or in other words v say that as i enter 254587, then i press calculate i get 25458796, as i enter 548754 i get 54548554 .... and so on

these algo used in any prog language, like java, c++ , c# or whatever ...

i want to find the relation b/w these numbers ...

or i need a code in whatever programing language ... where i enter these both numbers 548754 and 54548554, it show me the relation b/w these numbers ...

is there any genious around who can do this ...

its all logic, its all technique .. and its all artifical intelligence ... and its all human build things .. so theres should the one who can find the relation or algo or whatever v can say b/w them ...

looking from your sides ...

further queries are welcome ..

regards ...


solo ...
pakistan ....

hello members

i wanna ask a question from u personalities ...

the question came into my mind and i m trying to clear the scenario here ...

v have a set of numbers let suppose
set 1
254587
25458796

set 2
548754
54548554

set 3
54a5e84
e24d8e1s5

set 4
e8a7e5d
2ad8e25d4d


these numbers are generated from the same algo or same techniques, and theres a reltion exists b/w these numbers of each set

or in other words v say that as i enter 254587, then i press calculate i get 25458796, as i enter 548754 i get 54548554 .... and so on

these algo used in any prog language, like java, c++ , c# or whatever ...

i want to find the relation b/w these numbers ...

or i need a code in whatever programing language ... where i enter these both numbers 548754 and 54548554, it show me the relation b/w these numbers ...

is there any genious around who can do this ...

its all logic, its all technique .. and its all artifical intelligence ... and its all human build things .. so theres should the one who can find the relation or algo or whatever v can say b/w them ...

looking from your sides ...

further queries are welcome ..

regards ...


solo ...
pakistan ....

hello members

i wanna ask a question from u personalities ...

the question came into my mind and i m trying to clear the scenario here ...

v have a set of numbers let suppose
set 1
254587
25458796

set 2
548754
54548554

set 3
54a5e84
e24d8e1s5

set 4
e8a7e5d
2ad8e25d4d


these numbers are generated from the same algo or same techniques, and theres a reltion exists b/w these numbers of each set

or in other words v say that as i enter 254587, then i press calculate i get 25458796, as i enter 548754 i get 54548554 .... and so on

these algo used in any prog language, like java, c++ , c# or whatever ...

i want to find the relation b/w these numbers ...

or i need a code in whatever programing language ... where i enter these both numbers 548754 and 54548554, it show me the relation b/w these numbers ...

is there any genious around who can do this ...

its all logic, its all technique .. and its all artifical intelligence ... and its all human build things .. so theres should the one who can find the relation or algo or whatever v can say b/w them ...

looking from your sides ...

further queries are welcome ..

regards ...


solo ...
pakistan ....

hello members

i wanna ask a question from u personalities ...

the question came into my mind and i m trying to clear the scenario here ...

v have a set of numbers let suppose
set 1
254587
25458796

set 2
548754
54548554

set 3
54a5e84
e24d8e1s5

set 4
e8a7e5d
2ad8e25d4d


these numbers are generated from the same algo or same techniques, and theres a reltion exists b/w these numbers of each set

or in other words v say that as i enter 254587, then i press calculate i get 25458796, as i enter 548754 i get 54548554 .... and so on

these algo used in any prog language, like java, c++ , c# or whatever ...

i want to find the relation b/w these numbers ...

or i need a code in whatever programing language ... where i enter these both numbers 548754 and 54548554, it show me the relation b/w these numbers ...

is there any genious around who can do this ...

its all logic, its all technique .. and its all artifical intelligence ... and its all human build things .. so theres should the one who can find the relation or algo or whatever v can say b/w them ...

looking from your sides ...

further queries are welcome ..

regards ...


solo ...
pakistan ....

hello members

i wanna ask a question from u personalities ...

the question came into my mind and i m trying to clear the scenario here ...

v have a set of numbers let suppose
set 1
254587
25458796

set 2
548754
54548554

set 3
54a5e84
e24d8e1s5

set 4
e8a7e5d
2ad8e25d4d


these numbers are generated from the same algo or same techniques, and theres a reltion exists b/w these numbers of each set

or in other words v say that as i enter 254587, then i press calculate i get 25458796, as i enter 548754 i get 54548554 .... and so on

these algo used in any prog language, like java, c++ , c# or whatever ...

i want to find the relation b/w these numbers ...

or i need a code in whatever programing language ... where i enter these both numbers 548754 and 54548554, it show me the relation b/w these numbers ...

is there any genious around who can do this ...

its all logic, its all technique .. and its all artifical intelligence ... and its all human build things .. so theres should the one who can find the relation or algo or whatever v can say b/w them ...

looking from your sides ...

further queries are welcome ..

regards ...


solo ...
pakistan ....

hello members

i wanna ask a question from u personalities ...

the question came into my mind and i m trying to clear the scenario here ...

v have a set of numbers let suppose
set 1
254587
25458796

set 2
548754
54548554

set 3
54a5e84
e24d8e1s5

set 4
e8a7e5d
2ad8e25d4d


these numbers are generated from the same algo or same techniques, and theres a reltion exists b/w these numbers of each set

or in other words v say that as i enter 254587, then i press calculate i get 25458796, as i enter 548754 i get 54548554 .... and so on

these algo used in any prog language, like java, c++ , c# or whatever ...

i want to find the relation b/w these numbers ...

or i need a code in whatever programing language ... where i enter these both numbers 548754 and 54548554, it show me the relation b/w these numbers ...

is there any genious around who can do this ...

its all logic, its all technique .. and its all artifical intelligence ... and its all human build things .. so theres should the one who can find the relation or algo or whatever v can say b/w them ...

looking from your sides ...

further queries are welcome ..

regards ...


solo ...
pakistan ....

you can't make a program that will find 'the' relation between 2 numbers, because there are so many possible relationships.

Consider the set 1 in your example.
a: 254587
b: 25458796
The solution could be any one of (or even any possible one not given here):

b = a*100 + 96
or
b = a + 25204209
or
....

Any type of program to find a relationship, will need a large set of numbers all having the same relation among eachother.


While you can make a program that will try to find relations, I doubt you can make one that can find ALL relations, and I also kind of expect it to be going to be slow in finding a solution (minutes, hours, maybe even days/weeks)

Quote:

---

Originally posted by OReubens
you can't make a program that will find 'the' relation between 2 numbers, because there are so many possible relationships.

Consider the set 1 in your example.
a: 254587
b: 25458796
The solution could be any one of (or even any possible one not given here):

b = a*100 + 96
or
b = a + 25204209
or
....

Any type of program to find a relationship, will need a large set of numbers all having the same relation among eachother.
While you can make a program that will try to find relations, I doubt you can make one that can find ALL relations, and I also kind of expect it to be going to be slow in finding a solution (minutes, hours, maybe even days/weeks)

---

I think the OP poster isnot someone strange to this board because that guy also posted even Chitchat :p

About your answer to this problem, I think it is not quite correct !:cool:
This problem is still able to solve. But because the OP just gave out so little information on those sets, it looks like unable. So my inquiring mind tells me to ask you what those sets you gave are, exactly ? Tell people so that Galathaea will come and help you, she is great about this....

Hometown

Hmm... what is meant by relation?
Assume you entered x[i] and got y[i], do you want to determine whether an unknown y[i] has already been calculated for the given x[i]? If so hold a data structure and lookup in table, something like:

Code:

---

struct data
{
  int arg;
  int f_val;
  bool evaluated;
};
data dat[100];

---

or use std::map; (C++ standard library class.)
Or perhaps you mean something like inter/extra polation, but it won't guarantee that you'll get the right value for the given table. Or perhaps you can use 'difference calculus' method by guessing that given function is a polynomial of n-th power.

It seems like a challenging problem. There is no definite algorithm for any set of pairs of numbers; there are an infinite number of solutions. There is always a "best fit" polynomial, with degree less than or equal to the number of pairs minus one. What I would suggest doing is performing a series of common regressions to see if any match, such as logarithmic, power, exponential, linear, etc.

If you want something a bit more exotic, and which would take a lot more computing power, you could try selectively evolving equations, a very powerful and useful method (I would suggest researching this).

It is clearly not possible.

That is if you mean: Given a finite function from a subset of some domain
to a subset of some range determine the extension to the
entire domain.
When the the domain and/or range is allowed to be infinite, there
are clearly an infinite number of extensions to the entire domain;
even if a further restriction that the resulting extension be
expressable in the language in question (i.e. can be generated
as a well formed formula from the primitive symbol set and construction rules)

I have forgotten most of my numerial analysis but I think cubic spline for interpolation is general enough to work out an equation that fix nicely with a given set of points. And of course, the equation only represent one of the many possible solutions.

There are infinitely many relationships between two numbers.

If you itterate through a set of pairs you can eliminate some of these relationships... but never get the EXACT one only! Elementory number theory... and hence the theory behind encryption.

One of the easiest way to try and guess at the algorithm is to use a neural-net.

The best tools for this job:
- mathematical intuition
- understanding the person who wrote the original algorithm
- patience
- trial & error

If you know the form of the formula (like a x^2 + b x + c), then it's easy. Just use a program that does a least squares approximation to your data and you'll get a, b and c. If you don't have a clue what the formula looks like, then you'll have to play around with derivatives and growth factors to make educated guesses. Knowing what type of person programmed the black box and what it is used for can give you additional clues to what may be going on. Sometimes you can assume it is a very simple formula. Some other times you know right from the start that it will be difficult.

Anyways, as others have pointed out, it is more of a maths question than a programming one.

This question seems off the C# topic, but I'll try to help anyway. Please keep postings in this forum more specific to C#.

Much history of computer science has been devoted Cryptography, that is to answering questions just like the one you have posed. What you have devised or are trying to figure out is a one way cipher. There are many techniques decoding such ciphers, especially if something is known about how it was created.

The best cryptography reference I know is "Applied Cryptography: Protocols, Algorithms, and Source Code in C" by Bruce Schneier. I don't know if you can get the book outside the US, but it is available at bn.com:

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/boo...UD&cds2Pid=946

As for languages, I am a big fan of extending C++'s STL for heavy duty algorithmic work.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by solo
its all logic, its all technique .. and its all artifical intelligence ...

---

And it's also a very, very hard problem algorithmically. Unfortunately, I don't think you're going to find anything close to a decent answer, particularly not one done with VB. Frankly, anyone who could solve this problem should be doing better things with their time than hanging around some message board. ;)

to pinky

first of really really sorry that i could not reply early ,,, because was busy with exams and other stuffs ...

and so many thanks for all who replied to this query ..

now replying to your reply ...

ya u r right.. there are number of infinite relation b/w these pairs... but i have to get the right relation bcoz i know the sets with the same relations among them .. so this exists ..

u said =>One of the easiest way to try and guess at the algorithm is to use a neural-net.

whats about the nural net ... how i can use that in this scenario ... and how i can find the relation b/w these numbers using this system ..

waiting for answer ...

thanks

take care

reply to avdav


first of really really sorry that i could not reply early ,,, because was busy with exams and other stuffs ...

and so many thanks for all who replied to this query ..

now replying to your reply ...

to AdDav
ya u got the right thing .. i mean this too which u said as "do you want to determine whether an unknown y[i] has already been calculated for the given x[i]? "

now i did not get from ur this point => "Or perhaps you mean something like inter/extra polation, but it won't guarantee that you'll get the right value for the given table"

and this point => "Or perhaps you can use 'difference calculus' method by guessing that given function is a polynomial of n-th power"

how i can guess a right polynomial for that relation or algo .. i dont know how these number were generated.. and i cant read anothers mind that what he uses in this algorithm but i just know these sets ...

its really a bug problem for me and i have to get the result and solve this query ..

waiting for your help ...



TO KHEUN

u said =>"analysis but I think cubic spline for interpolation is general enough to work out an equation that fix nicely with a given set of points"

so in your view what will be the right equation for these sets or which equation can nearly fit these points ..

actually i m a programer and i have not been with extra mathematical and statistical background .. so i m feeling some difficulties in evaluating these ..

hope u work it out ..

waiting for your help ...

to oreabans

first of really really sorry that i could not reply early ,,, because was busy with exams and other stuffs ...

and so many thanks for all who replied to this query ..

now replying to your reply ...

ya u r right .. its a big deal ...

ya there many be a number of relation b/w two number .. but if a relatoin b/w these numbers is use to extract 2nd pair then 3rd pair then 4th and so on and v know all these pair .. then using all these pair v can surely find the right relation ... and this will be the relation which can be use to extract more pairs giing first number to that relation ..

and i m looking for that technique ... and hope u will find it for me or try to evaluate this query ...

waiting for your answer





to hometown

thanks dear for your answer

oh is this the little information ...

well actually they are alphanumeric or hexadecimal pairs with the same relation or technique uses to generate them ..

as i give number 1234 ... computer returns me 8765 after performing some calculation or formula .. then using the same calculation or formula or equation i enter 34566 and computer generate 23485 for me

and here i m going to find out that relation or formula or equation with the help of these number which already been calculated by that formula ...

hope it works ...

waiting for your answer

thanks

take care




thanks

take care

to SolarFlare

first of really really sorry that i could not reply early ,,, because was busy with exams and other stuffs ...

and so many thanks for all who replied to this query ..

now replying to your reply ...

well u said there is no definate algo for any set of pairs ... i guess there is bcoz v have different pairs which follows the same algo

as i give number 1234 ... computer returns me 8765 after performing some calculation or formula .. then using the same calculation or formula or equation i enter 34566 and computer generate 23485 for me

and here i m going to find out that relation or formula or equation with the help of these number which already been calculated by that formula ...


hope it works .. and waiting for your queries and answer

regards

thanks

take care

Can you try and restate what you want to do.
What do you know at the beginning. What do you want to
know at the end.

Look.. plain and simple: It can not be done. The best you
can do is find a formula which will agree with the finite function
you have so far. And even this is in general not possible.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by solo
____snip____

---

What exactly are you asking ?
I actually dont understand a thing about it...
Can you tell me from the begining of how it s started ? Because your problem sounds interesting !! :)

Quote:

---

Originally posted by souldog
Look.. plain and simple: It can not be done. The best you
can do is find a formula which will agree with the finite function
you have so far. And even this is in general not possible.

---

It is always possible to find a formula which will agree, but from the looks of things, it's not the one anyone would want. There is always a polynomial in P(n-1), where there are n terms, which will pass through all the points.

assuming the points represent a finite function, but
yes that is clearly the case here so you are right:)

in the beginning i know some pairs
like 1234 generated from 9876
2nd pair as 84746 generated from 73734
both numbres are generated using the same method, function, algoritham , formula, or quation whatever v say
i-e in the beginning v have 9876 and 73734
and in the end v have the generated numbers 1234 and 84746
i guess it helps ..
solo

hi hometown

actually i want to find the formula, equatoin , algo or some thing like this using which i can find the requied digits after providing some numbrs to it
i give 1234 to that equation or formula or whatever and it gives 9876 then using same eqation or formula or whatever i give 83847 it gives 83747 ..
so now i have these 2 set of numbrs .. and i want to find out that formula or equation or whatever
thas what i m asking ...
i m sure it is possible .. but how .. v have to find out .. its mind reading .......

solo...

You just don't get it.

Do you want A equation: Possible but probably useless
(I assume you want to generate other pairs that will agree with
the algorithm. )

or

Do you want THE equation (Not possible)

[Merged 6 cross-postings]

ya i want to get A equation which and need the another paris which follows that algoritham

Quote:

---

Originally posted by solo
ya i want to get A equation which and need the another paris which follows that algoritham

---

The answer appears to be a resounding no, that's not possible. If you search through this thread, all of your questions have been answered. Please do so.