God and religion

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Originally Posted by max

the grace of the almighty.

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Originally Posted by ree

life begins when you accept your fate...

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Originally Posted by max

As for me, I don't believe in luck, as everything is destined already. GOD has prepared everything before and after, so is there a possiblity for luck?

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Guys, I don't understand how you can believe in God and fate/destiny all the same time (I'm talking about Christian God, I'm not familiar with other religions). God and Fate are divergent ideas. You can't believe in God and say that he had prepared everything, and all happens according to a plan. Some of you probably know that I no longer believe in God, but according to the Christian Bible and Christian set of believes (which in my opinion are not entirely derived from the Bible), God has endowed us with Free Will. We are responsible for what we say and do, not God, no one else. Don't fool yourself. You are to be held responsible for your actions.

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Originally Posted by cilu

Guys, I don't understand how you can believe in God and fate/destiny all the same time (I'm talking about Christian God, I'm not familiar with other religions). God and Fate are divergent ideas. You can't believe in God and say that he had prepared everything, and all happens according to a plan. Some of you probably know that I no longer believe in God, but according to the Christian Bible and Christian set of believes (which in my opinion are not entirely derived from the Bible), God has endowed us with Free Will. We are responsible for what we say and do, not God, no one else. Don't fool yourself. You are to be held responsible for your actions.

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I also used to ask the same question...until one wise man told me about the God's plan....u put it this way...God had planned all for us...the plan mean: you not eat, you feel hungry...you sleep, you refreshed...the world rotate, there's night and day...it just like a law to this world...Katrina hurricane is just a plan and a nature's law...

there's much more he told me...I don't think this expalantion is enough for you but you can think about it...

as the Free will...we can change our fate but still we must follow the plan or law....you can't exceed the plan...

one more thing is bothered my thought before is why we lived in this world...is it just eat, sleep, work, enjoy and finally die?...that was meaningless...animal can do that also...so waht is the use being blessed with mind and lust?...

the wise man told me: as part of the God's plan...mind to think and lust to love...think, then you can prosper this world...love, then you'll appriciate this world(including the earthling and 'universeling')...

so what's good in prospering and appriciateing this universe, I ask him...only then your soul will rest in peace knowing that you accepted God's plan and use His blessing usefully...

I don't know...I'm still searching... :confused:

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Originally Posted by cilu

Guys, I don't understand how you can believe in God and fate/destiny all the same time (I'm talking about Christian God, I'm not familiar with other religions). God and Fate are divergent ideas. You can't believe in God and say that he had prepared everything, and all happens according to a plan. Some of you probably know that I no longer believe in God, but according to the Christian Bible and Christian set of believes (which in my opinion are not entirely derived from the Bible), God has endowed us with Free Will. We are responsible for what we say and do, not God, no one else. Don't fool yourself. You are to be held responsible for your actions.

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Cilu, you are right, a lot of the stuff out there these days, especially those associated with the Roman Catholcs, are not Biblical.

There is no Christian doctrine of fate/destiny.

We all have free will and are responsible for ourselves.

But this does not mean God can not see into the future. God already knows what is going to happen, but it doesn't mean we don't have free will.

Jesus knew Peter was going to deny him 3 times after Jesus was cought. Peter couldn't believe this. But only after it happened Peter remembered what Jesus had said.

In that little story you see the omniscience of God as well as free will.

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Originally Posted by Ree

I also used to ask the same question...until one wise man told me about the God's plan....u put it this way...God had planned all for us...the plan mean: you not eat, you feel hungry...you sleep, you refreshed...the world rotate, there's night and day...it just like a law to this world...Katrina hurricane is just a plan and a nature's law...

there's much more he told me...I don't think this expalantion is enough for you but you can think about it...

as the Free will...we can change our fate but still we must follow the plan or law....you can't exceed the plan...

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Originally Posted by Deniz

In that little story you see the omniscience of God as well as free will.

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Even if God was real, I can't accept that he is omniscient. Many things deny that. Starting with common sence. If God knows everything that was, is and will be, than it must be a really boring existance for him. Does he has thoughts? Thoughts about what, when he knows everything? What does he think of? Because if he decides to change something he already knew he would do that. An omniscient God would not require thoughts at all.

But the Bible clearly shows that God is not omniscient.

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Originally Posted by Genesis 1:31

And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

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God should have known that already.

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Originally Posted by Genesis 6:6-7

And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

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Was that something God didn't know?

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Originally Posted by Genesis 3:8-9

And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

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Why is God searching for Adam? He should have known were he was.

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Originally Posted by Genesis 18:1-2, 9

And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, […]
And they said unto him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent.

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Where is Sarah? Come on.

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Originally Posted by Genesis 18:21

I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

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Future tense.

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Originally Posted by Genesis 22:12

And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

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Only now? Why not before if he was omniscient?

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Originally Posted by Numbers 22:9

And God came unto Balaam, and said, What men are these with thee?

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I thought God knew everything.

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Originally Posted by Job 1:7, 2:2

And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

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Does his omniscience cover his (former) angels also? Because it's clear he didn't know where Satan was.
Want me to continue?

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Originally Posted by Deniz

Jesus knew Peter was going to deny him 3 times after Jesus was cought. Peter couldn't believe this. But only after it happened Peter remembered what Jesus had said.

In that little story you see the omniscience of God as well as free will.

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Rather good human nature knowledge than omniscience.

I can also quote you from Bible verses that proves that God is not omnipowerful, nor omnibenevolent nor omnipresent.

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Originally Posted by cilu

Even if God was real, I can't accept that he is omniscient. Many things deny that. Starting with common sence. If God knows everything that was, is and will be, than it must be a really boring existance for him. Does he has thoughts? Thoughts about what, when he knows everything? What does he think of? Because if he decides to change something he already knew he would do that. An omniscient God would not require thoughts at all.

But the Bible clearly shows that God is not omniscient.

God should have known that already.

Was that something God didn't know?

Why is God searching for Adam? He should have known were he was.

Where is Sarah? Come on.

Future tense.

Only now? Why not before if he was omniscient?

I thought God knew everything.

Does his omniscience cover his (former) angels also? Because it's clear he didn't know where Satan was.
Want me to continue?


Rather good human nature knowledge than omniscience.

I can also quote you from Bible verses that proves that God is not omnipowerful, nor omnibenevolent nor omnipresent.

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Couldn’t have put the point better myself.

The sooner people stop relying on "God" and accept the fact that religion is the biggest wives tale of them all... the better!

As for the orignal post, it certainly makes for interesting reading and as others have said, I defiently agree satying "foolish" is a good thing :)

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Originally Posted by Max Payne

As for me, I don't believe in luck, as everything is destined already. GOD has prepared everything before and after, so is there a possiblity for luck?

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If we call him from our hearts then he changes what he himself set for us and rescues us from the biggest of troubles.

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Originally Posted by cilu

Guys, I don't understand how you can believe in God and fate/destiny all the same time (I'm talking about Christian God, I'm not familiar with other religions).

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God is one. He is not different for me than you. He is everywhere and with everyone. We may call him from different names but he is the same.

Cilu, God is there for us. It's a matter of beilef if you believe in him or not. But take my word if you do then life would be more beautiful.

Guys, read this true story...

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The Man Without A Face
A True Story

Years ago a hardworking man took his family from New York State to
Australia to take advantage of a work opportunity there. Part of this
man's family was handsome young son who had aspirations of joining the
circus as a trapeze artist or an actor. This young fellow, biding g his
time until a circus job or even one as a stagehand came along, worked at
the local shipyards which bordered on the worse section of town.

Walking home from work one evening this young man was attacked by five
thugs who wanted to rob him. Instead of just giving up his money the
young fellow resisted.
However they bested him easily and proceeded to beat him to a pulp.

They mashed his face with their boots, and kicked and beat his body
brutally with clubs, leaving him for dead. When the police happened to
find him lying in the road they assumed he was dead and called for the
Morgue Wagon.

On the way to the morgue a policeman heard him gasp for air, and they
immediately took him to the emergency unit at the hospital.

When he was placed on a gurney a nurse remarked to her horror, that his
young man no longer had a face. Each eye socket was smashed, his skull,
legs, and arms fractured, his nose literally hanging from his face, all
is teeth were gone, and his jaw was almost completely torn from his
skull.

Although his life was spared he spent over year in the hospital. When he
finally left his body may have healed but his face was disgusting to
look at. He was no longer the handsome youth that everyone admired.

When the young man started to look for work again he was turned down by
everyone just on account of the way he looked. One potential employer
suggested to him that he join the freak show at the circus as The Man
Who Had No Face. And he did this for a while. He was still rejected by
everyone and no one wanted to be seen in his company.

He had thoughts of suicide. This went on for five years.

One day he passed a church and sought some solace there. Entering the
church he encountered a priest who had saw him sobbing while kneeling in
a pew.

The priest took pity on him and took him to the rectory where they
talked at length. The priest was impressed with him to such a degree
that he said that he would do everything possible for him that could be
done to restore his dignity and life, if the young man would promise to
be the best Catholic he could be, and trust in God's mercy to free him
from his torturous life.

The young man went to Mass and communion every day, and after thanking
God for saving his life, asked God to only give him peace of mind and
the grace to be the best man he could ever be in His eyes.

The priest, through his personal contacts was able to secure the
services of the best plastic surgeon in Australia. There would be no
cost to the young man, as the doctor was the priest's best friend. The
doctor too was so impressed by the young man, whose outlook now on life,
even though he had experienced the worse, was filled with good humor and
love.

The surgery was a miraculous success. All the best dental work was also
done for him. The young man became everything he promised God he would
be.

He was also blessed with a wonderful, beautiful wife, and many children,
and success in an industry which would have been the furthest thing from
his mind as a career if not for the goodness of God and the love of the
people who cared for him. This he acknowledges publicly.

The young man was and is Mel Gibson.
Mel Gibson ---- Australian actor (born in the United States in 1956)

His life was the inspiration for his production of the movie "The Man
Without A Face." He is to be admired by all of us as a God fearing man,
a political conservative, and an example to all as a true man of
courage.

And to think I admired him before I knew any of this!
He is quite a man!

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Originally Posted by logan

If we call him from our hearts then he changes what he himself set for us and rescues us from the biggest of troubles.


God is one. He is not different for me than you. He is everywhere and with everyone. We may call him from different names but he is the same.

Cilu, God is there for us. It's a matter of beilef if you believe in him or not. But take my word if you do then life would be more beautiful.

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When people dictate answer's similar to that; It always makes me think that because some people know religion is just an old story but feel they have to believe in something otherwise they'd loose hope, they decide to alter there opinion to: "god is all around us" and "within us". It’s almost like people don’t want to face up to the fact that we're on a ball of rock/earth floating around and that’s that. There’s no one looking out for us. God certainly isn’t within me, I’am within me, and that’s what makes me, me! :D

I (for myself) am thingking that all human in every decade of mankind existance have had questions wherefrom they come and where they are going. And in every time there had been leaders called priests, that explained the others, whats going on and they tried to explain ethical principals by creating stories for explaining this hot questions which aren't even really explained with the big bang theory of this physical universe. Its the: 'who was first - egg or chicken question. They explained all ( They had to explain it, because there job was to be a priest which was and IMHO still is defined in peoples opinion to be 'the person' who knows about spiritual things ) And because they have known about all the big wholes in their explanations they wrote it in a book called it holy and said its dircetly from god. By this its forbidden to doubt about that in catholic belief they told me (when I was a child ) that its not allowed to only think about that. Because I like to think, I have reliefed me from that restrictions :D

And to get respect for their god they have to give him features, whichfrom people are think that are good features. Omipotent, omniscience and all that stuff. I think religion is philosophy which changes from time to time.
Some of them have leaded to extreme things like burning 'witches' where a witch or magican was defined to be anybody who was unwanted by the regime (political or religious )
But religion can still be a good thing, when it has a practical ethical system which gives people hope and a direction to create their live and their customs in a peaceful and helpful way, where there is a way to live a full live ant that they know that they are responisble for what they are doing or creating. And in opposit to religions like catolic full of fear and forced obligations there are religions like buddhism which have never gone through the world with fire and sword to convert people to 'the only truth'

Thats my opinion about that. Thx for reading that lot :)

Jonny Poet

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Originally Posted by polus

It’s almost like people don’t want to face up to the fact that we're on a ball of rock/earth floating around and that’s that. There’s no one looking out for us.

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My opinion about faith and religion is that all goes down to the idea that we like to believe that there is a higher power out there, somewhere, who watches over us, who takes care of us, who punishes the bad and rewards the good. That is the esence of every religion.

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Originally Posted by Jonny

But religion can still be a good thing, when it has a practical ethical system which gives people hope and a direction to create their live and their customs in a peaceful and helpful way, where there is a way to live a full live ant that they know that they are responisble for what they are doing or creating.

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Only that that means living lie. I don't like that. I like to know the truth, even if the truth is hard to stand. As the Bible says, the truth will set us free.

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Originally Posted by cilu

My opinion about faith and religion is that all goes down to the idea that we like to believe that there is a higher power out there, somewhere, who watches over us, who takes care of us, who punishes the bad and rewards the good. That is the esence of every religion.

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Thats the method the etical systems are forced to people by religions.

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Originally Posted by cilu

Only that that means living lie. I don't like that. I like to know the truth, even if the truth is hard to stand. As the Bible says, the truth will set us free.

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But live and logic and all in the world is a dichotomie, to have something 'good' needs his opposite the 'bad' you cannot have boolean without dichotomies True, False yes, no, black and white and also god and his opposit the devil. True and untrue. More near the truth is a scale something can be good ,a bit better, much better, a little bit bad, very bad, deadly bad. but all in relation to someone you see. Whats good for the hunter isn't good for rabbit. so whats good if you dont have a point of view ?
So whats true ? Whats real truth. People normally can agree that the truth is, what they have observed (with their own eyes). If they have very less
mental reservations they maybe say: thruth is what xy says, because xy is the person they trust.

But when five people observe the same thing and you ask them, what they have seen, you will get five differnt things and all are the 'truth'. I'm not implementing that they lie. it is, because they all have looked from a different point of view, with different abilities to look to something. And they are not only looking at things, they are implementing their experience.
You show them a person where they only can see the left side. you ask what they see and you get things like: I have seen his brown eyes ( He didn't know if there is even a second eye or not, he has seen 'his brown eyes' you see. So I think Jesus was one of them who said ( to come back to the bible philosophy :) Whats truth ?
To understand me: I haven't told that things in this book 'the bible' are true or not, wrong or not. I tried to explain, why IMHO this book was written
Its full of 'truth' and also full of 'lies' if you want. its a point of view nothing else, just like hunter and rabbit. Its depending if you are a part of the group or not. And if you try to be 'without opinion' thats an unfixed viewpoint. In that case other people will tell about you, that you are not reliable, that you permanently change your opinion. So you can decide which 'lie' you want to live : the christian, the atheistic, the 'we are all out of sludge' people, the big bang theory people, the 'believe in your success guys' and so on. But whats truth ???

I think I' m just very near to your point of view. But as more as I want to find out truth, as more I can agree with that big words: 'I know that I dont know'
And thatfor I like programming, because in relation to multiple logic of live, this is a very simple dual logic of yes and no and mathematics, which is maybe the thing where real truth is based on. But believe me: Its only opinion, I dont know.

Jonny Ppoet

we're all human beings anyway...Atheist or not, we share this one world...as long as we can live in hermony, everybody can have their own opinion;)...

BTW...I'm hungry right now...aha..there is a cabbage in my fridge...I guess I want to be foolish by eat it raw.... :rolleyes:

Good thing about beleiving in religion and god is that some people get tremendous amount of tranquility by beleiving that there is some superior force that is taking care of things for them.. which I believe is good. It is something like a simple hug that one can receive from someone. Logically , the person could very well say I care for you and be off. But, a physical embrace has that power which cannot be quantified or reasoned out.. It just works. Religion and God might have that effect on certain people. I guess that is a +ve thing..

On the same count, I feel bad that religion has been a major cause of so much tragedy in this world too..

BTW, raw cabbage is good. Very healthy and very tasty if fresh too ;)

people, don't eat raw cabbage ! stay hungry you wil...:p

shish...I jsut want to lived by the "stay hungry, stay foolish" theory...but it seems too difficult...if I cooked the cabbage, I can't be foolish...if eat the raw cabbage, I can be foolish but I'm not hungry anymore...

what can I do!!!!!.....:mad:

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its a point of view nothing else

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Of course that truth is just a point of view. Everything is a point of view. At this point I wonder if you all exist or are just the product of my mind. Perhaps I am the only mind in the universe, I am God. Can you prove to me otherwise?

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Good thing about beleiving in religion and god is that some people get tremendous amount of tranquility by beleiving that there is some superior force that is taking care of things for them.. which I believe is good. It is something like a simple hug that one can receive from someone. Logically , the person could very well say I care for you and be off. But, a physical embrace has that power which cannot be quantified or reasoned out.. It just works. Religion and God might have that effect on certain people. I guess that is a +ve thing..

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I agree. You have a point here. But when the prophets of God, and the priests of the Only-True-Living-God start telling us who to tolerate and who to kill, what do read and what to kept away off, who to marry and who not, what movies to watch and how to dress I get really mad.

I believe God is only a product of our fears and desires. One of my favorite quotes about God is this:

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Originally Posted by Anne Lamott

You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.

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When you look at what hapened in the world over the centuries and milleniums and what still happens today you can see how true this statement is.

PS: You know, I just remembered. God is real, unless declared integer.

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Originally Posted by cilu

I agree. You have a point here. But when the prophets of God, and the priests of the Only-True-Living-God start telling us who to tolerate and who to kill, what do read and what to kept away off, who to marry and who not, what movies to watch and how to dress I get really mad.

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That's what I referred to when I said religion has been the reason for several atrocities too..

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Originally Posted by kirants

That's what I referred to when I said religion has been the reason for several atrocities too..

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Its not only religion. Nearly every philosophy can be used to guide people into hate and intolerance. But we are able to look behind that stuff. In that facts religion was / is misused for political reasons, in interpreting it to people by power-hungry priests. One of this points of interpreting for reasons of might is that 'my god is the true and only one, all others are false prophets !' I become cold in the back, whenever I only think on such statements.

Jonny Poet :wave:

Hello! I would just like to share this article/investigation about God, Fate/Destiny, Omniscience. :)

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Predestinarian view. The view that God’s exercise of his foreknowledge is infinite and that he does foreordain the course and destiny of all individuals is known as predestinarianism. Its advocates reason that God’s divinity and perfection require that he be omniscient (all-knowing), not only respecting the past and present but also regarding the future. According to this concept, for him not to foreknow all matters in their minutest detail would evidence imperfection. Examples such as the case of Isaac’s twin sons, Esau and Jacob, are presented as evidence of God’s foreordaining creatures before their birth (Ro 9:10-13); and texts such as Ephesians 1:4, 5 are cited as evidence that God foreknew and foreordained the future of all his creatures even before the start of creation.

To be correct, this view would, of course, have to harmonize with all the factors previously mentioned, including the Scriptural presentation of God’s qualities, standards, and purposes, as well as his righteous ways in dealing with his creatures. (Re 15:3, 4) We may properly consider, then, the implications of such a predestinarian view.

This concept would mean that, prior to creating angels or earthling man, God exercised his powers of foreknowledge and foresaw and foreknew all that would result from such creation, including the rebellion of one of his spirit sons, the subsequent rebellion of the first human pair in Eden (Ge 3:1-6; Joh 8:44), and all the bad consequences of such rebellion down to and beyond this present day. This would necessarily mean that all the wickedness that history has recorded (the crime and immorality, oppression and resultant suffering, lying and hypocrisy, false worship and idolatry) once existed, before creation’s beginning, only in the mind of God, in the form of his foreknowledge of the future in all of its minutest details.

If the Creator of mankind had indeed exercised his power to foreknow all that history has seen since man’s creation, then the full weight of all the wickedness thereafter resulting was deliberately set in motion by God when he spoke the words: "Let us make man." (Ge 1:26) These facts bring into question the reasonableness and consistency of the predestinarian concept; particularly so, since the disciple James shows that disorder and other vile things do not originate from God’s heavenly presence but are "earthly, animal, demonic" in source.—Jas 3:14-18.

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Infinite exercise of foreknowledge? The argument that God’s not foreknowing all future events and circumstances in full detail would evidence imperfection on his part is, in reality, an arbitrary view of perfection. Perfection, correctly defined, does not demand such an absolute, all-embracing extension, inasmuch as the perfection of anything actually depends upon its measuring up completely to the standards of excellence set by one qualified to judge its merits. Ultimately, God’s own will and good pleasure, not human opinions or concepts, are the deciding factors as to whether anything is perfect.—De 32:4; 2Sa 22:31; Isa 46:10.

To illustrate this, God’s almightiness is undeniably perfect and is infinite in capacity. (1Ch 29:11, 12; Job 36:22; 37:23) Yet his perfection in strength does not require him to use his power to the full extent of his omnipotence in any or in all cases. Clearly he has not done so; if he had, not merely certain ancient cities and some nations would have been destroyed, but the earth and all in it would have been obliterated long ago by God’s executions of judgment, accompanied by mighty expressions of disapproval and wrath, as at the Flood and on other occasions. (Ge 6:5-8; 19:23-25, 29; compare Ex 9:13-16; Jer 30:23, 24.) God’s exercise of his might is therefore not simply an unleashing of limitless power but is constantly governed by his purpose and, where merited, tempered by his mercy.—Ne 9:31; Ps 78:38, 39; Jer 30:11; La 3:22; Eze 20:17.

Similarly, if, in certain respects, God chooses to exercise his infinite ability of foreknowledge in a selective way and to the degree that pleases him, then assuredly no human or angel can rightly say: "What are you doing?" (Job 9:12; Isa 45:9; Da 4:35) It is therefore not a question of ability, what God can foresee, foreknow, and foreordain, for "with God all things are possible." (Mt 19:26) The question is what God sees fit to foresee, foreknow, and foreordain, for "everything that he delighted to do he has done."—Ps 115:3.

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// The continuation of this article has the sub-topic entitled "Selective Exercise of Foreknowledge" which shows an alternative to predestinarianism. If anyone is wants to see it, just let me know and I'll post it here too.

And why would God need to play this game ?

Uhm, please excuse my ignorance... but, what game are you referring to? :confused: :D

// I guess I'm trying to see if you're referring to the topic of the article I posted?

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Clearly he has not done so; if he had, not merely certain ancient cities and some nations would have been destroyed,

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Referring to this... why would God do all this ? Doesn't that make God sound too human ???

Yes, exactly. God's perfection in strength does not require him to use his power to the full extent. Same with his power to foresee the future. He can see the future if he chose to, and when he sees fit. But it doesn't mean that he has planned all things ahead for us. We are accountable with our own actions/decisions in life.

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Originally Posted by cherish

Uhm, please excuse my ignorance... but, what game are you referring to?

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What game? What do you mean what game. The game of knowing what's going to happen and still go ahead with everything. That means God knew that people will turn away form him and to repent them he would have to sacrifice his own son for that (I'm talking about Christian God). What kind of father does something that can be avoided and which would end up with his only son's death? That's... first degree crime.

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Originally Posted by cherish

To illustrate this, God’s almightiness is undeniably perfect and is infinite in capacity.

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Please read again this post of mine. This shows acts of God. That is something different than praises, poems or songs made by people, which can be misleading and based on believes not on actual facts. It shows the true nature of God.

Let me show you just a few more. About the all-mightyness of God, his all-powerness.

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Originally Posted by Genesis 32:24-31

And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.
And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.
And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.
And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
And as he passed over Penuel the sun rose upon him, and he halted upon his thigh.

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A man fought with God and defeated him. This is a fact that tells me that the God of the Bible is nothing but a human like me and you.

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Originally Posted by Judges 1:19

And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

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God was stopped by a bunch of chariots of iron. That's ironic. But perfectly reasonable if God was just a man, with probably some advanced weapons and hi-tech gadgets in his pocket.

Interestingly.. in hindu mythology there are gazillions of gods. And the Gods are powerful and things like that, but they have these human qualities like being jealous of other gods, spreading gossip etc.. etc.. They make wonderful stories. I find them interesting in that way.. There might be good morals to learn from these, but I think they also reveal that, Gods have been a human creation intended to explain the unexplainable.

Interestingly, not only in Hindu mythology. Roman and Greek mythology has lots of gods too and they display human qualities. Actually, they really act like how humans do. Human's effort to explain the subject about God has led to those mythologies. No wonder, some people have given up on God altogether.

man...this God issue will never end...just like never ending story....

I believe in one Creator...but I don't believe in evolution...the Darwin's theory really doen't make sense...how can only apes that can evolve to have mind....no other species can evolve to this great stage....crocs exist earlier than us but why they can't evolve greatly to have mind either....
EDIT: what is the species of apes that had evolve to human...and why other species of apes can't evolved like we do...

so what is the purpose of our existence...we have minds and lust...but other species only have lust...

maybe God not exist...but what if He exists....we have nothing to lose if we believe in God I think....

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Originally Posted by mrRee

so what is the purpose of our existence...we have minds and lust...but other species only have lust...

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The last part of that sentence was funny. :D

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Originally Posted by che_rish

The last part of that sentence was funny. :D

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am I wrong:p....lust is not for sex only...lust to eat, lust to socialize, lust to play, lust to et cetra...

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Originally Posted by cilu

What game? What do you mean what game. The game of knowing what's going to happen and still go ahead with everything. That means God knew that people will turn away form him and to repent them he would have to sacrifice his own son for that (I'm talking about Christian God). What kind of father does something that can be avoided and which would end up with his only son's death? That's... first degree crime.

Please read again this post of mine. This shows acts of God. That is something different than praises, poems or songs made by people, which can be misleading and based on believes not on actual facts. It shows the true nature of God.

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Well, if you have read my post sharing a part of that article I've read, you will see that God does not play that game at all. The Bible does show that he's not omniscient like what you have shown in those posts you linked. Believing that God is all-knowing (omniscient), is in contrast/conflict with what the Bible teaches that we are given Free Will. Why give us this gift if he has determined for us what will happen to us? Doesn't make sense, right?

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About those two scriptures you have quoted, I've researched about it and I found out it doesn't necessarily prove that God is human like you and me. Do you want me to show you using the Bible? Just let me know. ;)

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Originally Posted by mrRee

am I wrong:p....lust is not for sex only...lust to eat, lust to socialize, lust to play, lust to et cetra...

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I'm just saying that it was funny. ;) But since you asked about it.. the proper word would be "need". Like need to eat, sleep, drink, socialize.

/ Speaking of needs, we have physical needs (like food, shelter, clothing), emotional needs (like friends, family, love), etc... and these needs has to be satisfied/met.

// I believe humans have spiritual needs that animals don't have. And I believe this is the reason why we question why we are here, why we exist, and what the purpose of life is. But the problem is, people have different opinions as to the answer to these questions. Its confusing and frustrating sometimes. :sick:

but I like to use "lust" as the word....:eek:

if we're only use "need"...then we'll not overdo it if the need had been met...but because we have lust, even though we still full, we still want to eat and eat and eat...so if we can control the lust, we'll not be sitting on the couch eating junk food while watching tv;)

same like animals...they lust for food even though they had eaten all day...

but maybe, we can call it instinct...that's more like it...animals can't control their instinct because they don't have minds...but we can control our instinct if we use our minds properly...:rolleyes:

Ah, okay. If that's what you want to call it, then that's your prerogative. :)

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Originally Posted by che_rish

Believing that God is all-knowing (omniscient), is in contrast/conflict with what the Bible teaches that we are given Free Will. Why give us this gift if he has determined for us what will happen to us? Doesn't make sense, right?

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Then why are we told in every single church on this planet that God is omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent? A, paradox, don't you think?

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About those two scriptures you have quoted, I've researched about it and I found out it doesn't necessarily prove that God is human like you and me. Do you want me to show you using the Bible? Just let me know. ;)

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Of course I do.

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but I don't believe in evolution...the Darwin's theory really doen't make sense...

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You live in England, right? Here is a story from a city in England, no sure which, I believe it's Sheffield. In the 19th century, before the city was heavily industrialized, there was a scpecie of butterflyes that came in two colors: one that had yellow wings, and one with black wings. They were pretty even distributed. When industry was brought into town, and the smog turned the city sky and houses and the country side arround it to dark, the yellow butterflies were exerminated, and the black ones flourish. Why? Because the yellow ones were easier to spot by their natural predators (some birds), but the black ones, were camuflated within the environment. In a few years there were only black butterflies. Survival of the fittest. That is one element of evolution.

Well, nobody forces you to believe that everything evolved from some unicellular creature, but to deny that evolution takes place is like keeping your eyes wide shut.

I should say that this is a VERY Interesting thread. Here's my opinion / view / whatever you may call it.

firstlty, I'm ashamed to say that I haven't been in a church for about 12 years now, not because I'm an athiest, because of people and the church itself.

some Churches help themselves and not the people. priests, reverends commit murder - drink too much, but judge you. Homosexual priests, want to free people from sin, but they themselves are sinners :eek: . Churches want people with money, they don't help people that really need food. My parents were involved in a lot of church functions - no thank you was ever given, no appreciation for money brought in by the bookshop or fast food stalls. Instead of saying thank you, they took the bookshop away from my mom, gave it to someone else, which stole the church's money - ironic isn;'t it ¿ When my family really needed help - the church turned it's back.

That's my opinion on churches (probably off topic), but that doesn't mean I don't believe in God. Church is not God, we are just people. I for one, do believe in Him - because if it wasn't for Him, we wouldn't have had food on the table, and everything today. I do pray alot during the day. To say thank you, if it was a good day, or to ask to be with us, if things don't look right. I sincerely belive that everything (good or bad) happens for a reason - I don't think it's a game. Yes, we do have free will, but as I've said, everything happens for a reason, every choice you make happens for a reason (good or bad). What's the reason - time will tell. Sometimes you think you make a wrong decision, but it turns out to be a hidden blessing ¿

I don't know what else to say, but I'm thankful in Him, for everything everyday.

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some Churches help themselves and not the people. priests, reverends commit murder - drink too much, but judge you. Homosexual priests, want to free people from sin, but they themselves are sinners . Churches want people with money, they don't help people that really need food. My parents were involved in a lot of church functions - no thank you was ever given, no appreciation for money brought in by the bookshop or fast food stalls. Instead of saying thank you, they took the bookshop away from my mom, gave it to someone else, which stole the church's money - ironic isn;'t it ¿ When my family really needed help - the church turned it's back.

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In Romania, problably elsewhere also, there is a saying: do what the priest says, not what the priest does. When I see priests here in Romania buying a new car each a few years, builing their own houses, traveling each year to Germany, UK or US, and God know with what money, when there are people in their congregation who doesn't have enough food to eat or cloths to wear, and then they preach not to gather fortunes on earth for you will loose everything, because our fortune is in Heavens, well, it just makes me sick. :o

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Originally Posted by logan

Guys, read this true story...

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That's a completely false story.

http://www.snopes.com/glurge/noface.htm

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Originally Posted by cilu

You live in England, right?

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surprisingly, me English is very bad...Antartican didn't use English much...me walrus can't understamd it.... :D

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Survival of the fittest. That is one element of evolution.

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well, this one element is so in me sense...but me can't smell the sense of human apes...so me don't sense the assumption of how the human apes become the only creature that can figure out how this earth make a complete rotation around the sun in a day... :D

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...but to deny that evolution takes place is like keeping your eyes wide shut.

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me still can listen, smell, feel, taste, think :blush: ...maybe Darwin can't make me eyes wide open yet with his theory...maybe Darwin is the only human ape ever evolved to cook his mutton before eat it...loads of science stuffs, Darwin's stuffs are the biggest ironic... :eek:

//pardon me to use such written style...just making fool of my bloody self...again:D..

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surprisingly, me English is very bad...Antartican didn't use English much...me walrus can't understamd it....

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You did not anwer my question. If I was wrong I'm sorry, I was just left under this impression from former discussions.

HanneSThEGreaT - There are some set-ups built up and people do find out ways to break the exisiting systems and cause it damage for their personal goals, whatever may it be. But that doesnt force you to change your values. Are they so weak to be shaken by a handful of bad people? I know my values aren't.

Cilu - Religion and God (or thoughts or learning related to them) are somethings that we get as values from our parents, teachers and the surroundings during our childhood. And so since we dont have that much of a reasoning capability then we do accept those things being true. Questioning them later as you are doing now is totally reasonable. But one thing I would suggest you is - if you are really that much interested in proving the whole of the Bible or Hindu mythology (kirants pointed out this - calling it a story - I am not an extremist but you should choose words correctly when talking in context of Religion and beliefs) or any other religion as wrong - I would say you are not justified/authorized. I see you quoting quite a few lines from those holy books - one quick question - Have you read the book complete?

For example: If I have read a chapter about arrays only and not vectors or dynamic allocation of memory - I would really wonder if they (arrays) really do serve my purpose. I will see many limitations. But as soon as I read all the stuff about the language and say vectors (which are part of the language) I would know that yes C++ does answer to my questions. Sorry for this analogy - this might not fit well here - but little knowledge is bad in my opinion.

To my knowledge - Heaven, God, Religion may not be "things" that exist or something like that but atleast they are the best thoughts that originate from a human mind. That is our ultimate goal, that is the standard that we wish to achieve. (Its just my belief, you may agree, you may not - no issues)

I may not have been able to place my thoughts well here - sorry for the places where my words fall out of place. By the way - I agree with what JonnyPoet Sir says. When everything fails...everything...your logic, your science, your reasonings..everything...then these beliefs are something that you take refuge in. I quote "Where the science ends, spiritualism begins." In Hindi (our mother tongue in India) - "Jahan pe wigyan samapt hota hai wahan se aadhyatm ki shuruwaat hoti hai."

Also, I am against extremism of any kind !!!

IMHO, God and religion have nothing to do one with another. Religion is the 2nd oldest occupation known to mankind and an excellent tool to make money and gain power. Seing the priests, Sunday morning believers and especially what has been done in the name of religion makes me think that prostitution is a more honest occupation.

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Originally Posted by mrRee

maybe God not exist...but what if He exists....we have nothing to lose if we believe in God I think....

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Exactly. No harms until we reach the limits of extremism. This is something to think upon, read the scriptures/holy books, the teaching of the religion gurus. I dont think you'll find many on codeguru. :)

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Originally Posted by exterminator

This is something to think upon, read the scriptures/holy books, the teaching of the religion gurus.

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lol. What mr Ree said is actually a form of Pascal's wager.

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Originally Posted by exterminator

Cilu - Religion and God (or thoughts or learning related to them) are somethings that we get as values from our parents, teachers and the surroundings during our childhood. And so since we dont have that much of a reasoning capability then we do accept those things being true. Questioning them later as you are doing now is totally reasonable.

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Well, one of my mottos are "I doubt, therefore I think. I think, therefore I am".

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Originally Posted by exterminator

But one thing I would suggest you is - if you are really that much interested in proving the whole of the Bible or Hindu mythology (kirants pointed out this - calling it a story - I am not an extremist but you should choose words correctly when talking in context of Religion and beliefs) or any other religion as wrong -

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Just some quotes won't prove that. I'm not trying to prove you that, I'm expressing my belief and provide arguments for that. If you accept them or deny, well, that's up to you. But debate without arguments is pointless. I do not accept things like: "it is God's will", "unkown are the paths of Lord God", "only God knows".

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Originally Posted by exterminator

I would say you are not justified/authorized. I see you quoting quite a few lines from those holy books - one quick question - Have you read the book complete?

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I'm not qualified? Really? Was Caesar qualified to conquer the world? Was Newton qualified to run experiments and state the laws of dynamics? Was Mendel qualified to teach us about inherited traits? Were the Wright brothers qualified to build a plain and fly with it? Do I need some diploma to read some books and draw some conclusions from them? I think not. I'm not willing to accept everything, just because qualified people said so. If Einstein was listening to the qualified people we would not have a theory of relativity. And what makes me qualified to contest the interpretation of the Bible? A diploma from Oxford or Harvard? A panel of priests who acknowledge that I have read the Bible, or what? You see sometimes you must think for yourself, and don't let the mainstream blur your mind. And to answer your question, of course I have read the entire Bible. As for the hinduism/buddhism I don't know too much, and I haven't made any reference to that.

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Originally Posted by exterminator

but little knowledge is bad in my opinion.

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Yes, I agree. That's why you should study for yourself and do not let other impose their views upon you.

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Originally Posted by exterminator

When everything fails...everything...your logic, your science, your reasonings..everything...then these beliefs are something that you take refuge in. I quote "Where the science ends, spiritualism begins."

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Well, thank you. You just prove my point. That religion and faith were born from our desire of knowing that there is someone out there that watches over us, who punishes and rewards us.

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Originally Posted by PadexArt

God and religion have nothing to do one with another. Religion is the 2nd oldest occupation known to mankind and an excellent tool to make money and gain power. Seing the priests, Sunday morning believers and especially what has been done in the name of religion makes me think that prostitution is a more honest occupation.

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:D that was very funny...

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Originally Posted by cilu

:D that was very funny...

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Well it wasn't meant to be just funny. It is my honest belief.

I usually hate quoting movies when dealing this type of subjects but have you seen Stigmata? The whole story eveolves around a phrase that I think encapsulates best my beliefs. Quoting from memory: you can find Jesus in any tree, under any rock ... you don't need churches for that

I praise a man for how decent and kind he is, not for his political/relligious beliefs.

EDIT: the original quote:

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Jesus said...the Kingdom of God is inside you, and all around you, not in mansions of wood and stone. Split a piece of wood...and I am there, lift a stone...and you will find me.

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Originally Posted by PadexArt

I usually hate quoting movies when dealing this type of subjects but have you seen Stigmata?

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Only three times. ;) I think it's the best movie about Christian believes and Bible. I mean this

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Jesus said...the Kingdom of God is inside you, and all around you, not in mansions of wood and stone. Split a piece of wood...and I am there, lift a stone...and you will find me.

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is the very esense of the Bible. And still, you can't find that quote in the Bible. ;)

Let us assume for a minute that God exists. He created the universe and everything in it. All the planets. All the stars. All the animals, insects, plants etc.

So out of all those fabulous things he created.... why does he ask man alone to worship him? Why don't the animals and insects have to worship him? It can't be based on intelligence since there are other species (e.g. chimpanzees) who are almost as intelligent as man and at least one species (dolphins) is believed to be more intelligent. So why, of all these, is man alone singled out? If worship is important to God, why didn't he give all his creations the ability to worship?

Does God think that man is something special among all his creations? I doubt it. If I was God, I reckon I'd think that stars were the most special thing in my universe. The simple fact is that it's MAN who regards himself as something special. But man is no more special than any other creature. Man just happens to be more dextrous.

God is important to man - but it's just human arrogance to believe that man is important to God.

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It can't be based on intelligence since there are other species (e.g. chimpanzees) who are almost as intelligent as man and at least one species (dolphins) is believed to be more intelligent.

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I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you here. There are many other inteligent species, but none can be compared with humans in terms of inteligence.

Not according to science, Cilu. The average dolphin is more intelligent than the average human. It was only their lack of limbs that prevented them from being the dominant species on the planet.

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Originally Posted by John E

Not according to science, Cilu. The average dolphin is more intelligent than the average human. It was only their lack of limbs that prevented them from being the dominant species on the planet.

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Can you point me to some experiments/tests that shows dolphins are more intelligent than humans?

You know, perhaps dolphins worship a god too? How would you know they don't? ;)