A spot to discuss my editiorial from today's Codeguru newsletter....
Feel free to disagree with what I said or to bash it!
Brad!
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A spot to discuss my editiorial from today's Codeguru newsletter....
Feel free to disagree with what I said or to bash it!
Brad!
How about an easy link for us lazy types..Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Jones
Newsletter will be going out any minute. I won't post it to the site until tomorrow, so no link is available until then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanaj
This is one of my weaker editorials (so my editors told me :) ). Hopefully everyone else doesn''t think it is so bad.
I'll prep you for it by asking this question -
If I gave you a small button with an X in it, what would you expect it to do:
Brad!
It depends on where it is placed - most common being top right corner of windows - close button.. or a stop button as in browsers.. On a calculator it would mean multiplication..
Could also be a Checkbox when next to text label...Quote:
Originally Posted by exterminator
Brad,
Where is the subscription selection for the Newsletter ??
On the right side of of the home page (www.Codeguru.com). Just under the big ad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanaj
Brad!
Yeah, and it could even be just a button with an X-mark on it .. nothing doing with computers and applications... that is how our minds have got biased.. may be this is what Brad's newsletter talks about .. ;)
That is way too logical a place to put that...I hope I got all the checks correct...Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Jones
Like other said, depends on the context.
If it's in the upper right corner of a box; if it's "standing" by itself (like Firefox's "find" popup at the bottom of the browser) I'd expect it to "close" that window.
If there are multiples grouped visually, I'd kinda expect them to behave like checkboxes.
Viggy
Brad,Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Jones
FYI, the URL has a ")" at the end of it and doesn't work.
I too didn't like the over reliance on toolbar icons. Its there in Office 2007 (Beta) too. I was using Excel and got very irritated using it. The toolbar is now so big and uses a lot of space. Also, can't see any hot\shortcut keys- which again is irritating. I many times switch back to using older versions of Excel (I have Excel 2000).
- Manoj
The newsletter is now posted:
http://www.codeguru.com/announcement...e.php/3640111/
Here is my thoughts...Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Jones
If you are going to use buttons with only symbols then you should also give the user a choice between the smaller/symbol only and a larger button with text. To use only small buttons with only a hint baloon is not a good idea as I feel it will deter new users from the product and maybe steer them towards a product with better interface. To say there is also a full menu if the user can't remember/figure out what these symbols mean is a major step backwards in GUI to almost the days of stone.
As to the use of IE7, I must first say that I moved to Firefox because of the tabs, security, and the ability to block the popups. If Microsoft has indeed fixed the many/major security flaws in IE7 that were present in previous versions I will most likely move to using IE7 more and more as it does seem faster and more compatiable with many websites.
At this point in time I do not see any advantage to move to Vista unless a 64bit system with a 1GB Video card shows up on my door step, I'll just wait until SP1 is released for Vista and maybe not even then. Other than the 64bit and the pretty new GUI, what else is there or is it a new skin on Windows 2.0.
I also do alot of testing of hardware and they are a weekly change to my test system and I think Microsofts new "Force them to give us money if they try to move the OS to another machine" EULA really, really SUCKS. It is really got me thinking about Linux more and more and yes maybe even moving to MAC OS X where good developers are needed and rewarded.
I think Microsoft should be happy with the 1 Billion dollar net profits a QUARTER and tell stock holders if that's not enough for you go invest in oil.
"Of course that is just my opinion, I could be wrong"
Some time ago I noticed that user interfaces of 'common use' applications are changing mainly in two ways. First is, that the way user can interact with application is extremely limited. Almost every application shipped with scanner, camera, VCR, MP3 player, mobile phone, etc etc (I believe that these are apps most frequently used by people who do not use computers or software for work) has one main dialog box with like six large, colorful buttons, and clicking any of then spawns new window of some app module. No menu, no accelerators, no nothing. Window is pretty skinned, colorful, buttons look cool, and are not labelled. There is no other way to know what these buttons do until one clicks or (lucky ones) rolls mouse over. I am findig interface like this completly unserviceable, annoying and hard to use. The other thing is that these interfaces mostly use some pretty skinning and themes and God-knows-what-other-eye-****ers implemented in vey unefficient way. Windows are of non-rectangular shape, close/maximize/minimize buttons are modified, dialogs cannot be minimized, and often stay always-on-top. Repainting window after it gets covered/minimized/clicked/anything takes ages. Everything blinks, flickers, plays sounds, beeps, makes me mad, oh please somebody make it stop...
I promise, some day I will check every 'About...' box in every application which pisses me off and any programmer mentioned as responsible for GUI will have very moralizing email to read. Oh even thinking about this GUI hell makes me mad :mad:
If I only could to modify my WinXP installation CD, I would make Windows classic Look'n'Feel default, no welcome/goodbye sound, no menu effects, always visible accelerators, and so many, many more :cry:
Just my two cents. I havent seen MSIE 7 yet, and I doubt if I will anytime soon. I am satisfied with my Opera, with simple look, no skinning, tons of shortcut keys, mouse gestures, tabs, and so on. So, no word about MSIE in this post (BTW did they already fix that <input type= > bug?).
Regards,
Hob
I think your editors told you something that I am here to say. ;)
Don't get me wrong, though.. just commenting based on what I feel... against the motion :)
A lot of people thought XP had a great UI when it came. Some of my friends got crazy about it. But even now, I change the theme to 98 one. That looks better to me.
There are basically 2 types of percievers categorized on their reaction to change. One who like the change and one who like to stick with the old. I haven't see the new icons but that might not be as major an issue than if the positions of those buttons were moved to right side or for the simplest case even swapped. That would have had been real uncomfortable.
You donot mention if there is a change in position on the explorer. If that is the same as what currently is - it should be fine. The paperish look being taken out is not that bad as compared to if they change the X or the Refresh Icon itself.
The change in IE would have had been a ripple effect of the change in the Vista UI on the whole. I don't have it and hence I would not be able to comment on it well.
There are also another section of percievers - they take more notice of the changes.. and say "Hey, Vista is totally changed! It looks so cool now" while their counterparts would say "Uh-oh, what has MS done in this version, it all looks the same, it isn't worth it". Mind you, they are not the customers who are programmers - who look at the API supports, UI support for their applications. They may not appreciate those things and may go just by the UI. So, change (not major) is sometimes required in products look and feel. Had Vista not be having any additional features that it might be having and just had a changed UI - they is a chance that it would have had become popular in the non-programmer sections of its customers. The fact is UI sells.
I agree that the meaning of the icons should not change but a little tweaking in the icons is OK. It would have had been wierd if the X button did the refresh or added a bookmark. As long as it means the same - it is the "X" that people notice. I did not even see that the paper that you referred has a little fold at the top right corner. Very few people notice those. I consider this a small change and it should not hamper the usability or popularity. (as long as I have understood it well and considering that I haven't actually seen the difference in functionality to push users to take help of the IE Menu items)
That's all my opinion. Don't consider it as any kind of judgement on what you said. :)
Running this forum has taught me all abou those that like and those that don't like change ;) :D.
One of my primary points was to state that simplifying interfaces is a good thing, but over simplifying can be very bad.
With WIndows Vista and IE 7, it seems that there was an assumption made that everyone would be familiar with WIndows and IE respectively. As such, simplifying the icons to the point of low-to-no meaning wouldn't be a problem because they are based on the prior icons that had been used.
As an example using Windows, if I put you in front of the screen and ask you where to find a program, even if you were new, you'd likely click on the button with the word 'start' on it. In Vista, there is no button with the word start on it. There is a nice Windows logo in the bottom left corner in a circle. While anyone who has used Windows will understand that the picture is the place to start, a newbie would not.
Even more to the point of oversimplification - menus are off by default. It is expected that you'll use toolbars rather than menus, so menus are off. In some cases that is fine, but in others, it makes a difference. For example, the View button in Windows Explorer doesn't give all the options that the View menu item does....
My reference to the X buttons is just another illustration of the oversimplfiication. The X button next to the Address bar means something different from the X button on the top right corner. If you are going to oversimplfiy, then change the stop button to a more appropriate graphic.
Brad!
I feel exactly the same thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobson
I have a brain... I know well French, and understand quite well English, so, please, UI developers, put PLAIN TEXT in your menus/toolbars!
I don't understand icons as long as I've not moved the mouse over it and waited three seconds that a text label pop up.
I've experienced that toolbars without text labels are simply absolutely useless, and use precious screen space!
Why?
Because the first times you use the application, you can't guess what an icon do if you've not yet clicked on it or read the text label popping up.
And, when you're an advanced user... Yes, you could think that recognizing icons is faster than recognizing texts of menus, and that it could save time.
But, that's wrong, because as soon as I've used an application a bit (say, more than ten minutes) I exclusively use keyboard shortcuts... It's far faster than clicking on a toolbar icon, even if the button is big and colored.
Worst... Usually icons in toolbars don't display keyboard shortcuts, while menus do.
So, when I use an application the first time, I go through the various menus, and read human-understandable text (Pictograms are for illeterates and are far less accurate and clear than the human language) and learn keyboard shortcuts.
Then, if possible, I deactivate this ugly colorful toolbar!
Of course, if there are no menus and no keyboard shortcuts, I'm not happy.
And, if there are no text labels on buttons, I have to guess the meaning of icons... Sometimes it's not hard... Sometimes it's quite impossible and I've to click on them to test their feature.
Toolbars are not fundamentally wrong... Toolbars are a good mean to put all the essential features in a small space, while menus are full of options.
But, a useful toolbar, would be a toolbar containing plain text (please, not using 50% of the screen space), perhaps icons... But not pure icons without text.
And, yes, a toolbar should always be removeable, since advanced users can use shortcut keys and the toolbar becomes useless.
That's a funny (not so funny) thing with computers.Quote:
I am findig interface like this completly unserviceable, annoying and hard to use. The other thing is that these interfaces mostly use some pretty skinning and themes and God-knows-what-other-eye-****ers implemented in vey unefficient way. Windows are of non-rectangular shape, close/maximize/minimize buttons are modified, dialogs cannot be minimized, and often stay always-on-top. Repainting window after it gets covered/minimized/clicked/anything takes ages. Everything blinks, flickers, plays sounds, beeps, makes me mad, oh please somebody make it stop...
Ten years back, when most UI were gray and rectangular, I laughed when looking at movies where incredible interfaces with big buttons and animations were used on computers. I thought that such counter-productive interface was only good for fictions & video games, not for real use.
I was obviously wrong.
Good luck. :) :DQuote:
I promise, some day I will check every 'About...' box in every application which pisses me off and any programmer mentioned as responsible for GUI will have very moralizing email to read. Oh even thinking about this GUI hell makes me mad :mad:
Oh, yes, menu effects... I had forgotten them. That's an abomination. It gives a feeling of sloooooowness of the entire system. Oh, yes, I deactivate all these things.Quote:
If I only could to modify my WinXP installation CD, I would make Windows classic Look'n'Feel default, no welcome/goodbye sound, no menu effects, always visible accelerators, and so many, many more :cry:
A strange thing. The default look of WinXP with big blues bars... When I first saw it, I thought it was the most ugly theme I had ever seen.... But, with time, I find it less ugly... I got used to it (though I don't use it at all... I'm still using Windows 98 with a Windows 95 look).
Opera is my favorite browser (I use it whenever I can).Quote:
Just my two cents. I havent seen MSIE 7 yet, and I doubt if I will anytime soon. I am satisfied with my Opera, with simple look, no skinning, tons of shortcut keys, mouse gestures, tabs, and so on. So, no word about MSIE in this post (BTW did they already fix that <input type= > bug?).
However, I use shortcut keys (I think you understand I love shortcuts), tabs and even mouse gestures sometimes. :)
And even a skin... But a very simple & clean (far simplier than the default one)... Black and white without any decoration.
I've also deactivated the "close" buttons on tabs, because they're not necessary (middle button click is better), and can accidentally be pressed.
My second favorite browser is mozilla under Linux... Because it's the most stable browser I know (it never crashed on my computer).