Is Visual C++ express really free?

Hello,

I wanted to know if Microsoft Visual C++ Express 2005 was really free.

Am I allowed to own 100% anything I make and do anything I want with it (sell it)?
Does Microsoft automatically download my source code and copy stuff they find interesting?

I don't want to my hard work to go to waste if I find out, so I am thinking about switching to Dev C++, but I like the Visual Studio environment better.

EDIT:
Yes, it is 100% free.

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Originally Posted by Brad Jones

The Answer to Is Visual C++ Express really free is a definite 'yes'.

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Originally Posted by Igor Vartanov

Visual Studio Express - FAQ

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When you publish it it is yours and that wont be able to use your source code or anything else. Microsoft only is giveing you the program the rest is up to you to do with it how you feel is right.

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Originally Posted by GamesSmash

Am I allowed to own 100% anything I make and do anything I want with it (sell it)?

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Anything legal, yes.

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Originally Posted by GamesSmash

Does Microsoft automatically download my source code and copy stuff they find interesting?

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Where do rumors like this start? Do you really feel that in the 10s of thousands of versions of Visual Studio they've sold and given away, that they would actually be interested in YOUR source code. Ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Arjay

Anything legal, yes.
Where do rumors like this start? Do you really feel that in the 10s of thousands of versions of Visual Studio they've sold and given away, that they would actually be interested in YOUR source code. Ridiculous.

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Okay, thanks for answering those questions.

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Originally Posted by Arjay

Where do rumors like this start?

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Microsoft hasn't exactly built itself an image of trust. If they thought it was beneficial to snoop on VS developers' code I have no doubt they would. I don't think they do, though, probably because they haven't figured out a way to profit from it yet.

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Do you really feel that in the 10s of thousands of versions of Visual Studio they've sold and given away, that they would actually be interested in YOUR source code. Ridiculous.

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You do have a point.

Visual Studio Express edition is completely free of cost and you can download it from here :

http://www.microsoft.com/Express/

and microsoft dont actually need your code in anyway.. The engineers @ microsoft are capable of building really big softwares using complicated algorithms, and OS itself.. so i think they are in no need of copying another one's source.. if they find someone that brilliant, they may try to join that person with them.,

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Originally Posted by GamesSmash

Does Microsoft automatically download my source code and copy stuff they find interesting?

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Well then with such approach how can you trust Dev C++??? How can you trust anything running next to your precious "hard work"?

Okay, getting serious. People who do really interesting stuff never ask questions of the kind. Guess why.

Because Dev C++ is open source.


Arjay:

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Do you really feel that in the 10s of thousands of versions of Visual Studio they've sold and given away, that they would actually be interested in YOUR source code. Ridiculous.

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Igor:

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How can you trust anything running next to your precious "hard work"?

Okay, getting serious. People who do really interesting stuff never ask questions of the kind. Guess why.

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I appreciate your help, but can you guys be a bit kinder.
Just because you are MVPs doesn't mean that I am a bad programmer whose source code is useless.

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Originally Posted by GamesSmash

Because Dev C++ is open source.

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Does that prove something? Are you suspicios then to any closed source products? :D

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I appreciate your help, but can you guys be a bit kinder.

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Sure. Ask technical questions instead of gossiping, and you'll get any possible and kind help. :)

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Just because you are MVPs doesn't mean that I am a bad programmer whose source code is useless.

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Side note: I am MVP since 2007. In 2006 I would say you the same. And in 2005 too... :)

Just forget about that MVP thing, I'll talk to you like a programmer to programmer. Man, that was just a simple test, and you failed it. I never said you are a bad programmer, or your code is useless. The real point was about experience and ability to estimate the complexity of such solution if it ever would be built (when I'm saying about solution I mean the way of having benefits from stoling the sources and estimating their value). I don't know will you be offended with that or not, but I clearly see you're lack of those both.

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Originally Posted by GamesSmash

Because Dev C++ is open source.
I appreciate your help, but can you guys be a bit kinder.
Just because you are MVPs doesn't mean that I am a bad programmer whose source code is useless.

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I never said your source code was useless. My point was that is wouldn't be very practical for any company to try to retrieve source code in such a manner. Imagine the logistical nightmare if a company wanted to gather source code and provide the resources to analyse it? It just wouldn't be worth the effort.

What's the comment about MVP's? What does that have to do with my response? It seems that the MVP program is widely misunderstood. Microsoft has awarded me MVP status for answering questions on this site. I've spent 4 years volunteering here and have been an MVP for a bit over a year. When you look at the water bottle, the free shirt and a couple of other things we get, it's not really worth the time investment. For some reason, folks think that MVPs have the 'inside track' to Microsoft. I wish this were the case - unfortunately it's not.

As far as open source goes - I don't have a problem paying for software if the software has the features I want. After all, I have a business where clients pay me to develop software for them so I want to use software that helps me get the job done as efficiently as possible. To me it's worth it to pay for software that offers a certain level of quality and it's been my experience that open source software is more hit and miss in that regard. I don't want to invest in open source where, if it doesn't work, I need to spend time debugging and patching it. Others may be interested in doing that, but I'm not.

I have VC6 introductory edition and it does not permit the distribution of executables created with it.
Can i upgrade for free or should i just get VC5 express?

Wait. So, .exe's created with Microsoft Visual Studio 2005 are non-distributable?!?!

Just when I decided to switch back to it from Arjay's advice

Hang on, not so fast. VC6 is the 10 year old version released in 1998.

VC5 is even older (released in 1996???).

These have nothing to do with VS2005 (released in 2005) and VS2008.

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Originally Posted by Lindley

Microsoft hasn't exactly built itself an image of trust. If they thought it was beneficial to snoop on VS developers' code I have no doubt they would. I don't think they do, though, probably because they haven't figured out a way to profit from it yet.

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Some people are willing to jump on the bandwagon against the big evil company that everyone likes to hate, they'll believe anything.

Seriously people, use your brains. If MS tried something like this, they'd be slapped with so many lawsuits that even they would probably be utterly destroyed. Nevermind the ordinary joes like you and I tinkering with stuff for fun, there are billions (probably trillions) of dollars worth of intellectual property out there being developed with Visual Studio... and when all of those companies blew their collective gaskets -not to mention the likely criminal charges- the only think left to do in Redmond would be to play taps.

Yeah, but if Microsoft put some clause in their EULA like: "We reserve the right to update this policy without notification. The latest version can be found at..."

They could easily and legally make it so they have access to our source code.
But of course they will get looked down upon A LOT if they are found out.

EDIT: I've seen clauses like those before in EULA's.

Microsoft hasn't proven itself to be trust worthy. I mean why should I have to register for something that is free? So they can track me? That is the whole point of registering. You sign up to yahoo and you are being tracked. Somethings require unique ids like chat rooms, but why does vs 2005/2008 require me to have a unique id for? I suppose they need to know when I use it? How I use it? You don't see most programs that are free require you to register for it unless:

A. To have a unique name and password
B. To keep records of you
C. Both A and B

I don't see (A) being a concern when programming and I can see B for stats.

If mircosoft found your code valuable to them, they would do:

1. Ask you for it for a lump sum of cash
2. Agree to a cut and run off with it
3. Build an alternative

Did you know internet explorer wasn't made by microsoft, but instead was built by a company other than microsoft? See microsoft agreed to give the company quarterly fee and some percentage of the sells, but microsoft was fooling this company and they agreed. Microsoft then turned around and built it part of the os, so there are no sells for it. Microsoft got sued for this and ... well had to pay up.

For more about that, read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Microsoft

I just learned that there was an Internet Explorer for Unix back then :eek:... Of course it is discontinued now :(... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Explorer_for_UNIX

Also if you don't want to use vs 2005/2008 because you think they will spy on you, you shouldn't use their os either. Both are from microsoft.

Also microsoft has a bad known rep with European Union which fined them $1.4 billion for abusing their power. Also microsoft tried to buy Yahoo! which didn't happen. I am glad they can't touch google.

Besides that I do like Windows xp :) I use it daily

You(People) can be nicer to GamesSmash. He asks one question that you may see as ridicious and that you could have simply answered, but all you done was whine like babies.

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Originally Posted by GamesSmash

Hello,

I wanted to know if Microsoft Visual C++ Express 2005 was really free.

Am I allowed to own 100% anything I make and do anything I want with it (sell it)?
Does Microsoft automatically download my source code and copy stuff they find interesting?

I don't want to my hard work to go to waste if I find out, so I am thinking about switching to Dev C++, but I like the Visual Studio environment better.

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It is only free after you put personal information in to register it. Free always comes with a price. No matter if it is money or time or pride. I am not sure you can distribute your exe or not. I know microsoft put limits on this with previous versions.

Although it is possible they can rip your code, but I wouldn't put it pass microsoft. It may give them ideals. Although I don't think they have been. It may cost them too much :)

o_O I am suspicious again.

About why the Visual Studio Express is free, I think it is because Microsoft wants people to get used to their environment and be forced to upgrade to their $600 full version once they become full-time developers.

Im gonna download it and try it out, im always up for new things.
The only thing that stinks is that its almost 800megs!
My internet connection speed is 48k.
This means im gonna have to download small chunks of for the next week.
I have VC6 and out of all my compilers i think its the best.
Since i only code for fun im sure its way more than i need, but why drive a pinto when you can drive a corvette?
Even if its only at 35 mph...

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Originally Posted by GamesSmash

o_O I am suspicious again.

About why the Visual Studio Express is free, I think it is because Microsoft wants people to get used to their environment and be forced to upgrade to their $600 full version once they become full-time developers.

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Or maybe its so good that a full time developer will fall in love?

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Originally Posted by Arjay

As far as open source goes - I don't have a problem paying for software if the software has the features I want. After all, I have a business where clients pay me to develop software for them so I want to use software that helps me get the job done as efficiently as possible. To me it's worth it to pay for software that offers a certain level of quality and it's been my experience that open source software is more hit and miss in that regard. I don't want to invest in open source where, if it doesn't work, I need to spend time debugging and patching it. Others may be interested in doing that, but I'm not.

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I find that a gross mischaracterization of open source software. Most, if not all, of the major software packages that Microsoft produces have equal or superior open source equivalents. Do you think that any self respecting ISP is using windows servers? Does Firefox have major bugs that don't get fixed? Do you really think that outlook is a superior mail client to Thunderbird? Have you tried open office or Google office? Do you really think Access is better than MySQL? Have you ever used a Wiki?

To be more relevant, are you really going to try and claim that the VC++ compiler is superior to the gnu compiler?

I think a lot of the criticism directed at microsoft is probably misinformed or silly like this thread. However, I think a lot of it is very appropriate. I think that microsoft practices to try and subvert standards to lock consumers into their OS have made the jobs of all programmers harder and have lowered the quality of software for all users.

Oh shoot, I guess with that post I will never be able to be a MS MVP

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Originally Posted by souldog

I find that a gross mischaracterization of open source software. Most, if not all, of the major software packages that Microsoft produces have equal or superior open source equivalents.

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In my experience, open source software ranges from poor to excellent; no different from commercial software.

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Originally Posted by souldog

Do you think that any self respecting ISP is using windows servers?

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Yes. The Windows Server OSes (at least 2003 and 8) seem to be rated more favourably than their client OSes. IIS has been solid since version 6 (though Microsoft does not advertise this fact).

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Originally Posted by souldog

Does Firefox have major bugs that don't get fixed?

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Firefox is an excellent browser and probably the most end-user friendly open source product to date.

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Originally Posted by souldog

Do you really think that outlook is a superior mail client to Thunderbird? Have you tried open office or Google office? Do you really think Access is better than MySQL? Have you ever used a Wiki? To be more relevant, are you really going to try and claim that the VC++ compiler is superior to the gnu compiler?

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Not really used Thunderbird in anger, so can't say. Not used OpenOffice. Many say it's still not quite there but perfectly reasonable nonetheless. Surely MySQL compares with SQL Server rather than Access? Not used GNU compiler.

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Originally Posted by souldog

I think a lot of the criticism directed at microsoft is probably misinformed or silly like this thread. However, I think a lot of it is very appropriate. I think that microsoft practices to try and subvert standards to lock consumers into their OS have made the jobs of all programmers harder and have lowered the quality of software for all users.

Oh shoot, I guess with that post I will never be able to be a MS MVP

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MS is a commercial company. They want to make money. So naturally they want you to buy their products. Nothing wrong with that. I think their software is pretty good. Is it perfect? No. But what is? Over the years I've generally found that competing software is either:

No better
Worse
More expensive
More difficult to use

or some combination of the above.

I think you missed the point, or I did not make it correctly.

I was not trying to denigrate MS software. I am not a MS hater. I use their IDE 16 hours a day (most days). I was simply making the point that to characterize open source software as buggy or lower in quality is contrary to the facts.

I actually don't know about the newer versions of the servers. I was speaking from first hand knowledge, but it is some years out of date. I would be surprised if major ISPs where using it.

Open office is better in some ways and needs improvement in others. Frankly I got sick of buying new copies of office. Open office does everything I need and I believe at my company we are going to switch to it. The one product I really like in MS office is Visio, but then again MS did not write that software.

No one is arguing that it is bad that microsoft wants to make money from their software. I don't think improving quality is always the most profitable activity in the short term. I don't think innovation is as profitable as branding.

Is microsoft improving quality and innovating? Seems like it to me. Maybe that is because they have serious competition, much of which is free. And that is a good thing

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Over the years I've generally found that competing software is either:

No better
Worse
More expensive
More difficult to use

or some combination of the above.

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We have had different experiences

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I use their IDE 16 hours a day (most days)

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Ay Caramba! Do you have a life outside work? ;)

My hours are 8:30am - 5:00pm Mon/Thu and 4:00pm on Fridays. Being asked to stay back to finish something urgent is a rarity.

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Over the years I've generally found that competing software is either:

No better
Worse
More expensive
More difficult to use

or some combination of the above.

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I've certainly come across some truly horrible GUIs on some open source apps. Some of the commercial ones weren't to hot either but they don't seem to reach such depths.

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Originally Posted by souldog

I think you missed the point, or I did not make it correctly.

I was not trying to denigrate MS software. I am not a MS hater. I use their IDE 16 hours a day (most days). I was simply making the point that to characterize open source software as buggy or lower in quality is contrary to the facts.

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OK, yes I agree with you there. There is some excellent open source software around. I use quite a lot myself. Recently I've been using WatiN for example. Superb. Its documentation isn't that great but the mailing list is top notch.

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Originally Posted by souldog

Frankly I got sick of buying new copies of office. Open office does everything I need and I believe at my company we are going to switch to it. The one product I really like in MS office is Visio, but then again MS did not write that software.

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Well, with Office I have Office 2000 and have found no reason thus far to use any later MS version! In fact had I not needed to use MS Access at the time I would not have moved beyond Office 97!

I do keep reasonably up-to-date with the dev tools though because that's what I make my living from.

Personally I'd go Dev C++ anyway. MS has a bad habit of remaking standards their way and their compilers don't follow C++ compliance 100% and do weird stuff.

For example, try compiling this code on a ms compiler:

Code:

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for(int i=0;i<10;i++)
{
cout<<"something"<<endl;
}

for(int i=0;i<10;i++)
{
cout<<"something else"<<endl;
}

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You'll get an error in the 2nd loop that i is already initialized! That's wrong, it should fall out of scope at the end of the first loop. Not with ms!

I'm sure there's more stuff too.


If you're planing to do strictly ms code (.net) VS is ok, but for general C++ where you'd like to go cross platform dev c++ is more compliant. Lot of stuff that compiles in dev c++ will also compile in g++.

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Originally Posted by Red Squirrel

You'll get an error in the 2nd loop that i is already initialized! That's wrong, it should fall out of scope at the end of the first loop. Not with ms!

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You're out-of-date. That behaviour was fixed in VC++ 2003.

Actually, rather than doing their own thing, MS was merely sticking to original C++ behaviour regarding scope and then being slow to accommodate the changed standard.

BTW, IIRC no compiler is 100% standards compliant. It's just a question of which is the most standards compliant (unless something's changed in the last year or so). I agree MS traditionally has lagged behind but each release gets more rather than less standards compliant.

I agree with your point about standards in general though. But sometimes Microsoft's proposals are actually an improvement. For example XML schemas are clearly superior to DTDs. Yet the former were devised by Microsoft.

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Originally Posted by souldog

I find that a gross mischaracterization of open source software. Most, if not all, of the major software packages that Microsoft produces have equal or superior open source equivalents. Do you think that any self respecting ISP is using windows servers? Does Firefox have major bugs that don't get fixed? Do you really think that outlook is a superior mail client to Thunderbird? Have you tried open office or Google office? Do you really think Access is better than MySQL? Have you ever used a Wiki?

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Your comparisons seemed to be centered around web development which is a small part of the work I do. As far as Open Office - my business partner uses it and it's a bit of a pain for me to have to convert to a format that he is able to use (his version doesn't support docx). Access vs. mySQL, maybe. mySQL vs. MS SQL or Oracle? - mySQL falls way short in terms of features and tools. If open source works for you, use it.

I've read their EULA for Microsoft Visual C++ Express 2005 and found something very disturbing.

So Microsoft doesn't sue me for posting a part of their EULA here, you all can check it at number 19 in their EULA.1033.txt (search for it in program files).

One thing it says (to my reading comprehension knowledge) is that you can only claim $5.00 if Microsoft breaches the contract even if Microsoft knew they were breaching it.

In other words: Microsoft can strip you bear of your source code for $5.00.

I think some countries don't allow a clause like this, but I don't know about that.

Note: This is just what I understood. I am not a lawyer, but I believe this is true.

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Originally Posted by Red Squirrel

Personally I'd go Dev C++ anyway. MS has a bad habit of remaking standards their way and their compilers don't follow C++ compliance 100% and do weird stuff.

For example, try compiling this code on a ms compiler:

Code:

---

for(int i=0;i<10;i++)
{
cout<<"something"<<endl;
}

for(int i=0;i<10;i++)
{
cout<<"something else"<<endl;
}

---

You'll get an error in the 2nd loop that i is already initialized! That's wrong, it should fall out of scope at the end of the first loop. Not with ms!

I'm sure there's more stuff too.


If you're planing to do strictly ms code (.net) VS is ok, but for general C++ where you'd like to go cross platform dev c++ is more compliant. Lot of stuff that compiles in dev c++ will also compile in g++.

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Dev-C++ lets you get away with a lot of things, not good, not bad.
Ive been using the MS compiler for development because it is a bit more strict.
Sometimes the discrepencies kick me in the butt.
But it Dev-C++ using mingw is a aslo a good compiler.
I think that Red Squirrels code sample should be illegal.

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Originally Posted by bitshifter420

Dev-C++ lets you get away with a lot of things, not good, not bad.

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Well, in this case it's not "letting you get away with anything." It's conforming to the standard!

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Originally Posted by bitshifter420

I think that Red Squirrels code sample should be illegal.

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Why? It conforms to the standard! Or are you saying that the standards committee made the wrong choice?

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Originally Posted by Joeman

You(People) can be nicer to GamesSmash. He asks one question that you may see as ridicious and that you could have simply answered, but all you done was whine like babies.

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I believe you need to reread my replies to GamesSmash. At no point was I ever not nice to him.

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Originally Posted by Kevin McFarlane

Well, in this case it's not "letting you get away with anything." It's conforming to the standard!



Why? It conforms to the standard! Or are you saying that the standards committee made the wrong choice?

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Yes, i think the committee made the wrong choice.
I also think that 'for' and 'do while' statements are unnecessary.
It can all be done with the 'while' loop which is faster, simpler, and easier to read.
If you conform to that, then Red Squirrels code should be illegal.

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Originally Posted by bitshifter420

Dev-C++ lets you get away with a lot of things, not good, not bad.

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And most of those reasons why Dev-C++ (g++) lets you get away with things is that by default, the ANSI switch for g++ is not turned on. Therefore a lot of code that is illegal C++ is accepted by the default mode of the Dev-C++ IDE (no ANSI switch invoked). This is one of the weaknesses of the g++ compiler -- its default mode is to compile non-compliant C++ code. Maybe for legacy reasons this can't be changed, but it really doesn't help the new programmer too well if what they believe they're writing is proper C++.

For example, declaring arrays with expressions as the number of entries instead of constant values. Legal in the default Dev-C++ configuration, but absolutely illegal C++.

Code:

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#include <iostream>

int main()
{
  int n;
  std::cin >> n;
  int array[n];
//...
}

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This code will compile using g++ without the ANSI switch on. However, the code is not legal C++ as you can't declare arrays using variables or any expression that uses variables. There are many threads here on CodeGuru (and in other programming forums) where the newbie C++ programmer writes a program like this, and never realizes what they're writing is not valid C++.

Needless to say, they get into all sorts of trouble once the code needs to be moved to any other compiler other than g++.

Regards,

Paul McKenzie

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bitshifter420

Yes, i think the committee made the wrong choice.
I also think that 'for' and 'do while' statements are unnecessary.
It can all be done with the 'while' loop which is faster, simpler, and easier to read.

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So everything can also be programmed in assembly, so lets all write in assembly. Every high-level language that I've used has multiple ways to write loops. C++ is no different.

The other looping constructs allow more natural ways of coding loops. It is easier in many ways to conceptualize a for loop in many circumstances than the equivalent while() loop, and vice-versa. A do-while() is used in the case where you must do a block of code at least once, and do the test for continuation after the block of code has been executed. Try to write the same thing with while(), and you will see that do-while() looks more natural to a programmer, and is easier to maintain.

Also as far as speed goes, it is the final optimizations that the compiler makes that determines which is faster, not what type of loop you use. If you code an equivalent while() loop and for() loop, the difference will be practically zero once the compiler optimizes the code. The "which is faster" argument cannot be made for tidbits like for() loops versus while() loops. Only the compiler's optimizer, not human eyes looking at source code, will determine the speed difference in these circumstances.

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If you conform to that, then Red Squirrels code should be illegal.

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But it isn't illegal, so it's all a moot point.

Regards,

Paul McKenzie

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arjay

Your comparisons seemed to be centered around web development which is a small part of the work I do. As far as Open Office - my business partner uses it and it's a bit of a pain for me to have to convert to a format that he is able to use (his version doesn't support docx). Access vs. mySQL, maybe. mySQL vs. MS SQL or Oracle? - mySQL falls way short in terms of features and tools. If open source works for you, use it.

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No I was focusing on many software components that a typical computer user uses everyday.

For the record I don't use open source development tools. I used to use dev-C++ if I wanted to write any sophisticated code, since VC++ 6.0 could not handle it.
Almost all my complaints against VC++ disappeared when I upgraded to VC2005.
I think the MS guys did a good job fixing this product. Would I recommend VC++ to a new user developing applications for windows: absolutely.

MFC is another story all together. I have not upgraded to 2008 and looked at the "new" version, so I may be speaking too soon. My guess is that they have not addressed the architectural design flaws. Instead they are probably focusing on more GUI components. I think they are probably stuck in this state because of the huge user base.

docX? You make my point for me. I wonder if Kevin using Office 2000 can open a docX file? I wonder if Office 2007 even provides an easy way to produce a file that Kevin can open? I guess he is going to have to go out and buy the new version. I have to admire that as a good business plan.

Also in the free world you have Blender, code::blocks, apache, linux, compiz, sauerbraten, gimp(ok, but little hard), php, phpmyadmin, all the gnu tools(even gcc), and there are lots more very useable programs that people daily use that I can't recall off hand.

Just look at all the open source projections here: http://sourceforge.net

I am sure most of them aren't superior, but if you look close enough, you will find "top notch" free programs out there. I don't use Open Office, but I am sure it is comparable to microsofts :).

Also since we are talking about other c++ ides, I want to point out code::blocks for their great ide I use. It is very nice. I only complain that the definition tool can be better, but it is very good besides that minor problem. I have to look into ms 2008 ide to see what the main differents are between them, but everytime I try I keep going back to code::blocks :(

the IDE that tends to be the "best" to any given user is the one they learned first.
That is the reason MS gives away the express versions. It is smart business

Quote:

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Originally Posted by souldog

MFC is another story all together. I have not upgraded to 2008 and looked at the "new" version, so I may be speaking too soon. My guess is that they have not addressed the architectural design flaws. Instead they are probably focusing on more GUI components. I think they are probably stuck in this state because of the huge user base.

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Indeed, MFC started out life as a 16-bit code base. It also was conceived prior to templates, so much of its architecture is based on an older, non-template approach. I'm sure if it was redesigned, it would look far different today. Of course as you said, that would most likely break people.

I find it hard to wonder how folks can complain about Visual Studio when using a version that's 10 years old. I'm one of those guys that uses the latest technology. It bothers me to start coding a new project with an old compiler. I've recently been working on two fairly large projects. I started coding one of them from the start with VS2008; the other project was upgraded from 2005 to 2008 after discussing it with the customer (it wasn't much of a port to upgrade though).

This hasn't happened in a long while, but I hate being in a position where I have to maintain code that's compiled in an older compiler - say using VC6. It would bother me to know that I have features available in the newer compilers/IDE's that I can't use. Fortunately I'm able to avoid such situations.

For the document formats, I'm a big believer in moving forward with technology. If you compare the file sizes of doc compared to docx, you'll see a significant size reduction. Also, if you look at the earlier doc versions compared to the later, you'll see differences there as well (earlier versions were COM documents, while the later versions became xml based). To me that's progress; others may feel that the same format should be carried on forever - I don't happen to believe that.

All this is neither here nor there, like I said if open source apps work for you, great.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Joeman

Also since we are talking about other c++ ides, I want to point out code::blocks for their great ide I use. It is very nice. I only complain that the definition tool can be better, but it is very good besides that minor problem. I have to look into ms 2008 ide to see what the main differents are between them, but everytime I try I keep going back to code::blocks :(

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I don't just code C++, so an important consideration to me is whether the IDE supports other non-C++ project types such as Web Services, Windows services, .Net code, installations and so on. For C++ code, does it provide different project types that help me get my work done? I don't want to have to start each project from scratch and have to learn a bunch of different applications.

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Originally Posted by souldog

docX? You make my point for me. I wonder if Kevin using Office 2000 can open a docX file? I wonder if Office 2007 even provides an easy way to produce a file that Kevin can open? I guess he is going to have to go out and buy the new version. I have to admire that as a good business plan.

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MS provides a free Office 2007 Compatibility pack which is available for Office 2000 which means I can in fact open docx documents. Of course, had I still been using Office 97 I'd have been in trouble.

But in any case, how many Office users are currently using Office 2007? Not many, so compatibility would not have been a big issue anyway. Office 2000 can read Office 2003. Or I could ask 2007 users to save in older format.

If i understand you, yeah it does for an initial position. Code::Blocks have a list of project types:

1. avr project
2. code::blocks plugin
3. console application
4. D application
5. Direct/X project
6. Dynmic Link Library
7. Empty project
8. FLTK project
9. GLFW project
10. GLUT project
11. GTK+ project
12. Irrlicht project
13. Kernel Mode Driver
14. Lightfeather project
15. Orgre project
16. OpenGL project
17. QT4 project
18. SDL project
19. Shared library
20. SmartWin project
21. Static library
22. Win32 GUI project( my favorite! )
23. wxWidgets project

You can also modify each one. Oh and you can change compilers with code::blocks. If you have ms 2008 compiler for c++, you can make code::blocks use it :)

I do have a question about vs2008. Does it have a source code formatter? In code::blocks you can format your code to either one of these:

1. ANSI
2. K&R
3. Linux
4. GNU
5. Java
6. Custom

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Originally Posted by Kevin McFarlane

MS provides a free Office 2007 Compatibility pack which is available for Office 2000 which means I can in fact open docx documents. Of course, had I still been using Office 97 I'd have been in trouble.

But in any case, how many Office users are currently using Office 2007? Not many, so compatibility would not have been a big issue anyway. Office 2000 can read Office 2003. Or I could ask 2007 users to save in older format.

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Fair enough, I was speaking without knowing for sure.

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Originally Posted by Kevin McFarlane

Firefox is an excellent browser and probably the most end-user friendly open source product to date.

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I don't use it but here's some interesting comparisions http://home.comcast.net/~SupportCD/FirefoxMyths.html

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Originally Posted by S_M_A

I don't use it but here's some interesting comparisions http://home.comcast.net/~SupportCD/FirefoxMyths.html

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I'm aware of that link but I couldn't care less what its says. I've used IE 6, IE 7, Opera (various versions up to current), Firefox 1.x to current and IMO Firefox is still the best. The relevant criteria for me are features and general usability. I was never interested in alleged better security, faster speed, etc.

Wow, this thread has gotten a bit far afield.

The only thing I have to say is regarding the for loop example: I never declare loop counters in the loop itself for precisely that reason: Different behavior on different compilers. Loop vars are always declared at the top of the function. One incidental upside to this is that you can take a pretty good guess at the big-oh running time of the function by just seeing how many loop counters you need.

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Originally Posted by Joeman

I do have a question about vs2008. Does it have a source code formatter? In code::blocks you can format your code to either one of these:

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Yes it does.

Here's the VS 2008 new project list:

C#
Windows Forms Application
ASP.Net Application
WPF Application
Console Application
Outlook 2007 Add-in
Word 2007 document
Dynamic Data Entities Web Application
Class Library
ASP.Net Web Service Application
WPF Browser Application
Excel 2007 Workbook
WCF Service Application
Window Forms Control Library
Dynamic Data Web Application
WPF Custom Control Library
WPF User Control Library
ASP.Net AJAX Server Control
ASP.Net Server Control
ASP.Net AJAX Server Control Extender
Smart Device Project
Excel 2007 Add-in
Infopath 2007 form template
Power point 2007 Add-in
Sharepoint 2007 Sequential Workflow
Visio 2007 Add-in
Excel 2003 Add-in
Excel 2003 Workbook
Powerpoint 2003 Add-in
Visio 2003 Add-in
Word 2003 Document
Excel 2007 Template
Infopath 2007 Add-in
Project 2007 Add-in
Sharepoint 2007 State Machine Workflow
Excell 2003 Template
Outlook 2003 Add-in
Project 2003 Add-in
Word 2003 Add-in
Word 2003 Template
SQL Server Project
Reports Application
Crystal Reports Application
Test Project
Sequential Workflow Service Library
Syndication Service Library
State Machine Workflow Service Library
WCF Service Library
Empty Workflow Project
Sequential Workflow Library
Sequential Workflow Console Application
State Machine Workflow Console Application
Workflow Activity Library

Visual Basic .Net
Windows Forms Application
ASP.Net Application
WPF Application
Console Application
Outlook 2007 Add-in
Word 2007 document
Dynamic Data Entities Web Application
Class Library
ASP.Net Web Service Application
WPF Browser Application
Excel 2007 Workbook
WCF Service Application
Window Forms Control Library
Dynamic Data Web Application
WPF Custom Control Library
WPF User Control Library
ASP.Net AJAX Server Control
ASP.Net Server Control
ASP.Net AJAX Server Control Extender
Smart Device Project
Excel 2007 Add-in
Infopath 2007 form template
Power point 2007 Add-in
Sharepoint 2007 Sequential Workflow
Visio 2007 Add-in
Excel 2003 Add-in
Excel 2003 Workbook
Powerpoint 2003 Add-in
Visio 2003 Add-in
Word 2003 Document
Excel 2007 Template
Infopath 2007 Add-in
Project 2007 Add-in
Sharepoint 2007 State Machine Workflow
Excell 2003 Template
Outlook 2003 Add-in
Project 2003 Add-in
Word 2003 Add-in
Word 2003 Template
SQL Server Project
Reports Application
Crystal Reports Application
Test Project
Sequential Workflow Service Library
Syndication Service Library
State Machine Workflow Service Library
WCF Service Library
Empty Workflow Project
Sequential Workflow Library
Sequential Workflow Console Application
State Machine Workflow Console Application
Workflow Activity Library

Visual C++
Custom Wizard
Windows Forms Application
Win32 Console Application
MFC Application
ATL Smart Device Application
CLR Empty Project
MFC ActiveX Control
MFC Smart Device ActiveX Control
MFC Smart Device DLL
Windows Service
Test Project
CLR Console Application
ATL Project
Makefile Project
Class Library
Empty Project
MFC DLL
MFC Smart Device Application
Win32 Project
Windows Forms Control Library

Other project types
Setup Project
Merge Module Project
CAB Project
Web Setup Project
Setup Wizard
Smart Device CAB Project
Database
Visual Studio Add-in
Shared Add-in
Blank Solution
Test Project

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Originally Posted by Arjay

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Joeman

I do have a question about vs2008. Does it have a source code formatter? In code::blocks you can format your code to either one of these:

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Yes it does.

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Where is located?

Tools\Options\Text Editor node. Under the various languages, look under the formatting nodes.

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Originally Posted by GamesSmash

One thing it says (to my reading comprehension knowledge) is that you can only claim $5.00 if Microsoft breaches the contract even if Microsoft knew they were breaching it.

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That does not mean Microsoft can break the law.