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  1. #1
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    Post When do you go pro? What do employers look for in Entry Level

    My question is this.
    Having studied and played with programming for some time, when do i know i'm 'ready' to enter the paid world. How much skill do i actually need?

    I know quite a bit (books), i'm very familiar with the topic, but not much applied experience other than homework projects from school.

    So, in essence, what is an Employer looking for from a newbie? I've seen job postings saying what you 'need' this and that... but that tells me nothing! I would like to benchmark myself agains what is needed in the work force. I need to know if i already posses enough skill to be able to 'cut it'

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    Re: When do you go pro? What do employers look for in Entry Level

    Homework projects are quite different compared to work projects:
    The larger size and the continuous change of requirements of work projects make them more difficult to handle. Also you may need to cooperate with people (programmers and managers) you would never choose when developing a homework project.
    When you start to develop sw for a company you'll see whther you are ready or not. But I guess you're ready as long as you have the will to learn new stuff.
    Extreme situations require extreme measures

  3. #3
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    Re: When do you go pro? What do employers look for in Entry Level

    I'm looking for a more quantifiable answer. I mean what skills are needed? What does an entry level position require from me? I'm trying to find out if i know enough.

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    Re: When do you go pro? What do employers look for in Entry Level

    Well, you can get the exact picture by visiting jobs sites and mailing groups etc.

    As you would see that almost every employeer asks for some common qualities, like team player, hard working, good in communication etc and then some specilized skills (which are more relavent to the job offered).

    The more important thing for a newbie is, problem solving skill. If you don't have the exposure of something, thats not a problem but if you don't have the skill to provide the solution, then exposure won't add anything. So, the more quality projects (even at student level), you'll go through with, the more problems and challenges you'll face and if you manage to get through with them, you'll find yourself in a better shape and ready to be part of some real project, a suitable candidate for an employer.

  5. #5
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    Re: When do you go pro? What do employers look for in Entry Level

    Yeah problem solving skills and I'd add two more :

    (1) Enthusiasm for the subject. Employers like to see that someone will work all hours of the day or night to get an issue resolved on time. I think you've already got this.

    (2) Ability to self-teach. You need to be able to explore new technologies yourself without relying on anyone else.

    Get some grounding in fundamental technologies e.g. MFC, .NET whatever and be able to demonstrate that you know what you're talking about.

    Then you'll go far... until you hit the management brick wall of course.

    Darwen.
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  6. #6
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    Re: When do you go pro? What do employers look for in Entry Level

    Thank you for the info. I'm sure its not an easy answer.. i mean, there's no simple way to answer the question. My curiosity is the level of expertise required.

    Being a new hire, what level of applications am i to write? I'm trying to concentrate on C++ and Windows (i'm learning MFC and windows prog.) and some .net (vb so far).

    I'm looking for someone that remembers their first job and what was required of them. What were you responsible for in the project as an 'entry level'?

    I need to find out if i'm overconfidend with my knowledge, or if i'm UNDERconfident, and i already know enough.

  7. #7
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    Re: When do you go pro? What do employers look for in Entry Level

    My first job was on Xara Webstyle. I wrote the original project (yep I did file/new project on it) and a lot more on it as well. I even helped out bugfixing other people's code when I'd finished all of mine. Yes - you always have to work as part of a team, even though most of the time you're working on your own piece of the jigsaw.

    In fact learning C++/MFC is no bad thing. There are loads of jobs, and you can apply your knowledge to any field of Windows programming. You could also do with learning STL just in case you go for a job which requires it.

    I'd ignore VB.NET and concentrate on C# as your .NET language. There's far more jobs in C# than in VB.NET (at the moment at least). As well as learning C++.NET (i.e. .NET in C++). I predict this will be highly advantageous in future. Plus it gives you an insight into how .NET works on the inside which I've always found very helpful when writing apps in C#.

    I'd also get a good book on object oriented design and learn about how to design software. Hacking software together really isn't on in a professional environment - not that most companies do just this anyway in some form or another.

    And don't think "I don't need to learn design". You really do ! It's what seperates a good professional programmer from a 'wannabe' in my opinion.

    You need to know WHY design is necessary : usually because it doesn't half make your life easier. And you can code stuff faster than any hacker if you know how to design software to be easily maintainable and reusable from the offset.

    Oh and I'm overconfident about what I know and I really shouldn't be. Sometimes I'm downright arrogant - but usually when people question my convictions.

    However I think that you'll find that certainly at your stage of the game you should realise that there are a lot of people out there who know more than you : and you can learn from.

    Experience has a lot to say for itself. You only realise this with hindsight (in my case definately) but it is an important thing to bear in mind.

    Ability is a wonderful thing : but pointless unless you gain experience in as many technologies as possible.

    Personally I've now got experience in a huge number of areas, but I'm still learning... every so often I find something on the forums which I didn't know. And I always will be. And so will you.

    Darwen.
    Last edited by darwen; December 19th, 2004 at 04:17 PM.
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    Thumbs up Re: When do you go pro? What do employers look for in Entry Level

    Thanx,

    I'm definetly looking to learn Windows first of all, and how this whole OS works. This will make .NET much more understanable.

    I think the next area i wanted to concentrate is what you've described. Complete design, and deployment of software. I know that i'll always be learning and i am looking forward to that.

    I suppose this is like finding a girlfriend. I can put on the coolest clothes, comb my hair and have the spiffiest shave on, and always be worried that its not enough to attract a mate. Untill i go and ask a bunch of girls out, i won't know if i'm "pretty " enough.

    I suppose i should practice a bit more, so i can easily and quickly solve small problems. Then go crazy "asking out" companies for "dates" (jobs). Otherwise i guess i'll never feel "ready".

    If anyone has any more input and/or stories of what they did on their first jobs, the more details the better... I'd love to hear from ya.

    ~PolishPaul~

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    Re: When do you go pro? What do employers look for in Entry Level

    With your attitude I don't think its going to take long before someone gives you a job.

    If I was running my own company I would.

    Good job soldier !

    Darwen.
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    Re: When do you go pro? What do employers look for in Entry Level

    Quote Originally Posted by darwen
    (1) Enthusiasm for the subject. Employers like to see that someone will work all hours of the day or night to get an issue resolved on time. I think you've already got this.
    (2) Ability to self-teach. You need to be able to explore new technologies yourself without relying on anyone else.

    Exactly the first 2 qualities that go out the window after a few years in a thankless job, around about the same time as you stop caring. You will find that you will be expected to NOT have a social life and you will also find that the managers will have an attitude of putting as much pressure on you as they like and slashing your time estimates in a project plan as they will - all because you are high paid.

    Welcome to IT, I'd turn around and run now if I were you...
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  11. #11
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    Re: When do you go pro? What do employers look for in Entry Level

    Quote Originally Posted by Deniz
    Exactly the first 2 qualities that go out the window after a few years in a thankless job, around about the same time as you stop caring. You will find that you will be expected to NOT have a social life and you will also find that the managers will have an attitude of putting as much pressure on you as they like and slashing your time estimates in a project plan as they will - all because you are high paid.

    Welcome to IT, I'd turn around and run now if I were you...
    Come on man, if everyone will walk out of IT, then who'll be making softwares?

    Well, I agree that tight deadlines are common part of a programmers life, limited (sometimes almost 0) social life, missing most of the fun, but in the end it got over. The hardest part is, when you have to match pace with new coming technologies, techniques etc but with time and experience things starts to get easy.

  12. #12
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    Re: When do you go pro? What do employers look for in Entry Level

    Well maybe in your company but I happen to work for the Grinch who stole our Christmas. We don't even get time off work to have our office xmas party. And I have harsh deadlines all up to a few days before my wedding day (I'm getting married very soon) and all so they can make a larger profit while I get paid the same.

    Still the good news is, I get to make good money while avoiding physical work
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    Re: When do you go pro? What do employers look for in Entry Level

    Quote Originally Posted by Deniz
    Well maybe in your company but I happen to work for the Grinch who stole our Christmas. We don't even get time off work to have our office xmas party. And I have harsh deadlines all up to a few days before my wedding day (I'm getting married very soon) and all so they can make a larger profit while I get paid the same.

    Still the good news is, I get to make good money while avoiding physical work
    Well, I understand your frustration, often go through this situation, but as you said you get good money while avoiding physical work

    Anyway , good luck for your wedding.
    Last edited by Ejaz; December 22nd, 2004 at 04:08 AM.

  14. #14
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    Re: When do you go pro? What do employers look for in Entry Level

    In my experience this happens because the Management don't have the foggiest idea how to manage a project properly.

    They start out with requirements which haven't been properly thought through, they go on to have a bad design of the system which then gets poorly tested, poorly deployed ("an installer isn't an important part of the system" - er, yes it is !) and poorly supported.

    And that's besides the inevitable slackers in the team who you can't see why the company ever gave them a job in the first place.

    They tend to become the managers of tomorrow as well, and the entire cycle repeats.

    99% of the time the good programmers have to work their buns off making up for everyone else's shortfalls/mistakes.

    It happens rather a lot in our industry so yes it is a minus point. Programming is extremely stressful : even when it's done well.

    So it's not all hearts and flowers in the garden of Eden.

    But it is a skill which is applicable just about anywhere.

    Darwen.
    Last edited by darwen; December 22nd, 2004 at 05:25 AM.
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  15. #15
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    Re: When do you go pro? What do employers look for in Entry Level

    Even that happens in the industiral giants like Electronic Arts

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