Is Visual C++ express really free?

[Joeman]

Microsoft hasn't proven itself to be trust worthy. I mean why should I have to register for something that is free? So they can track me? That is the whole point of registering. You sign up to yahoo and you are being tracked. Somethings require unique ids like chat rooms, but why does vs 2005/2008 require me to have a unique id for? I suppose they need to know when I use it? How I use it? You don't see most programs that are free require you to register for it unless:

A. To have a unique name and password
B. To keep records of you
C. Both A and B

I don't see (A) being a concern when programming and I can see B for stats.

If mircosoft found your code valuable to them, they would do:

1. Ask you for it for a lump sum of cash
2. Agree to a cut and run off with it
3. Build an alternative

Did you know internet explorer wasn't made by microsoft, but instead was built by a company other than microsoft? See microsoft agreed to give the company quarterly fee and some percentage of the sells, but microsoft was fooling this company and they agreed. Microsoft then turned around and built it part of the os, so there are no sells for it. Microsoft got sued for this and ... well had to pay up.

For more about that, read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Microsoft

I just learned that there was an Internet Explorer for Unix back then ... Of course it is discontinued now ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Explorer_for_UNIX

Also if you don't want to use vs 2005/2008 because you think they will spy on you, you shouldn't use their os either. Both are from microsoft.

Also microsoft has a bad known rep with European Union which fined them $1.4 billion for abusing their power. Also microsoft tried to buy Yahoo! which didn't happen. I am glad they can't touch google.

Besides that I do like Windows xp I use it daily

You(People) can be nicer to GamesSmash. He asks one question that you may see as ridicious and that you could have simply answered, but all you done was whine like babies.

Hello,

I wanted to know if Microsoft Visual C++ Express 2005 was really free.

Am I allowed to own 100% anything I make and do anything I want with it (sell it)?
Does Microsoft automatically download my source code and copy stuff they find interesting?

I don't want to my hard work to go to waste if I find out, so I am thinking about switching to Dev C++, but I like the Visual Studio environment better.

It is only free after you put personal information in to register it. Free always comes with a price. No matter if it is money or time or pride. I am not sure you can distribute your exe or not. I know microsoft put limits on this with previous versions.

Although it is possible they can rip your code, but I wouldn't put it pass microsoft. It may give them ideals. Although I don't think they have been. It may cost them too much

[GamesSmash]

o_O I am suspicious again.

About why the Visual Studio Express is free, I think it is because Microsoft wants people to get used to their environment and be forced to upgrade to their $600 full version once they become full-time developers.

[bitshifter420]

Im gonna download it and try it out, im always up for new things.
The only thing that stinks is that its almost 800megs!
My internet connection speed is 48k.
This means im gonna have to download small chunks of for the next week.
I have VC6 and out of all my compilers i think its the best.
Since i only code for fun im sure its way more than i need, but why drive a pinto when you can drive a corvette?
Even if its only at 35 mph...

[bitshifter420]

o_O I am suspicious again.

About why the Visual Studio Express is free, I think it is because Microsoft wants people to get used to their environment and be forced to upgrade to their $600 full version once they become full-time developers.

Or maybe its so good that a full time developer will fall in love?

[souldog]

As far as open source goes - I don't have a problem paying for software if the software has the features I want. After all, I have a business where clients pay me to develop software for them so I want to use software that helps me get the job done as efficiently as possible. To me it's worth it to pay for software that offers a certain level of quality and it's been my experience that open source software is more hit and miss in that regard. I don't want to invest in open source where, if it doesn't work, I need to spend time debugging and patching it. Others may be interested in doing that, but I'm not.

I find that a gross mischaracterization of open source software. Most, if not all, of the major software packages that Microsoft produces have equal or superior open source equivalents. Do you think that any self respecting ISP is using windows servers? Does Firefox have major bugs that don't get fixed? Do you really think that outlook is a superior mail client to Thunderbird? Have you tried open office or Google office? Do you really think Access is better than MySQL? Have you ever used a Wiki?

To be more relevant, are you really going to try and claim that the VC++ compiler is superior to the gnu compiler?

I think a lot of the criticism directed at microsoft is probably misinformed or silly like this thread. However, I think a lot of it is very appropriate. I think that microsoft practices to try and subvert standards to lock consumers into their OS have made the jobs of all programmers harder and have lowered the quality of software for all users.

Oh shoot, I guess with that post I will never be able to be a MS MVP

[Kevin McFarlane]

I find that a gross mischaracterization of open source software. Most, if not all, of the major software packages that Microsoft produces have equal or superior open source equivalents.

In my experience, open source software ranges from poor to excellent; no different from commercial software.

Do you think that any self respecting ISP is using windows servers?

Yes. The Windows Server OSes (at least 2003 and 8) seem to be rated more favourably than their client OSes. IIS has been solid since version 6 (though Microsoft does not advertise this fact).

Does Firefox have major bugs that don't get fixed?

Firefox is an excellent browser and probably the most end-user friendly open source product to date.

Do you really think that outlook is a superior mail client to Thunderbird? Have you tried open office or Google office? Do you really think Access is better than MySQL? Have you ever used a Wiki? To be more relevant, are you really going to try and claim that the VC++ compiler is superior to the gnu compiler?

Not really used Thunderbird in anger, so can't say. Not used OpenOffice. Many say it's still not quite there but perfectly reasonable nonetheless. Surely MySQL compares with SQL Server rather than Access? Not used GNU compiler.

I think a lot of the criticism directed at microsoft is probably misinformed or silly like this thread. However, I think a lot of it is very appropriate. I think that microsoft practices to try and subvert standards to lock consumers into their OS have made the jobs of all programmers harder and have lowered the quality of software for all users.

Oh shoot, I guess with that post I will never be able to be a MS MVP

MS is a commercial company. They want to make money. So naturally they want you to buy their products. Nothing wrong with that. I think their software is pretty good. Is it perfect? No. But what is? Over the years I've generally found that competing software is either:

No better
Worse
More expensive
More difficult to use

or some combination of the above.

[souldog]

I think you missed the point, or I did not make it correctly.

I was not trying to denigrate MS software. I am not a MS hater. I use their IDE 16 hours a day (most days). I was simply making the point that to characterize open source software as buggy or lower in quality is contrary to the facts.

I actually don't know about the newer versions of the servers. I was speaking from first hand knowledge, but it is some years out of date. I would be surprised if major ISPs where using it.

Open office is better in some ways and needs improvement in others. Frankly I got sick of buying new copies of office. Open office does everything I need and I believe at my company we are going to switch to it. The one product I really like in MS office is Visio, but then again MS did not write that software.

No one is arguing that it is bad that microsoft wants to make money from their software. I don't think improving quality is always the most profitable activity in the short term. I don't think innovation is as profitable as branding.

Is microsoft improving quality and innovating? Seems like it to me. Maybe that is because they have serious competition, much of which is free. And that is a good thing

Over the years I've generally found that competing software is either:

No better
Worse
More expensive
More difficult to use

or some combination of the above.

We have had different experiences

[JohnW@Wessex]

I use their IDE 16 hours a day (most days)

Ay Caramba! Do you have a life outside work?

My hours are 8:30am - 5:00pm Mon/Thu and 4:00pm on Fridays. Being asked to stay back to finish something urgent is a rarity.

[JohnW@Wessex]

Over the years I've generally found that competing software is either:

No better
Worse
More expensive
More difficult to use

or some combination of the above.

I've certainly come across some truly horrible GUIs on some open source apps. Some of the commercial ones weren't to hot either but they don't seem to reach such depths.

[Kevin McFarlane]

I think you missed the point, or I did not make it correctly.

I was not trying to denigrate MS software. I am not a MS hater. I use their IDE 16 hours a day (most days). I was simply making the point that to characterize open source software as buggy or lower in quality is contrary to the facts.

OK, yes I agree with you there. There is some excellent open source software around. I use quite a lot myself. Recently I've been using WatiN for example. Superb. Its documentation isn't that great but the mailing list is top notch.

Frankly I got sick of buying new copies of office. Open office does everything I need and I believe at my company we are going to switch to it. The one product I really like in MS office is Visio, but then again MS did not write that software.

Well, with Office I have Office 2000 and have found no reason thus far to use any later MS version! In fact had I not needed to use MS Access at the time I would not have moved beyond Office 97!

I do keep reasonably up-to-date with the dev tools though because that's what I make my living from.

[Red Squirrel]

Personally I'd go Dev C++ anyway. MS has a bad habit of remaking standards their way and their compilers don't follow C++ compliance 100% and do weird stuff.

For example, try compiling this code on a ms compiler:

for(int i=0;i<10;i++)
{
cout<<"something"<<endl;
}

for(int i=0;i<10;i++)
{
cout<<"something else"<<endl;
}

You'll get an error in the 2nd loop that i is already initialized! That's wrong, it should fall out of scope at the end of the first loop. Not with ms!

I'm sure there's more stuff too.


If you're planing to do strictly ms code (.net) VS is ok, but for general C++ where you'd like to go cross platform dev c++ is more compliant. Lot of stuff that compiles in dev c++ will also compile in g++.

[Kevin McFarlane]

You'll get an error in the 2nd loop that i is already initialized! That's wrong, it should fall out of scope at the end of the first loop. Not with ms!

You're out-of-date. That behaviour was fixed in VC++ 2003.

Actually, rather than doing their own thing, MS was merely sticking to original C++ behaviour regarding scope and then being slow to accommodate the changed standard.

BTW, IIRC no compiler is 100% standards compliant. It's just a question of which is the most standards compliant (unless something's changed in the last year or so). I agree MS traditionally has lagged behind but each release gets more rather than less standards compliant.

I agree with your point about standards in general though. But sometimes Microsoft's proposals are actually an improvement. For example XML schemas are clearly superior to DTDs. Yet the former were devised by Microsoft.

[Arjay]

I find that a gross mischaracterization of open source software. Most, if not all, of the major software packages that Microsoft produces have equal or superior open source equivalents. Do you think that any self respecting ISP is using windows servers? Does Firefox have major bugs that don't get fixed? Do you really think that outlook is a superior mail client to Thunderbird? Have you tried open office or Google office? Do you really think Access is better than MySQL? Have you ever used a Wiki?

Your comparisons seemed to be centered around web development which is a small part of the work I do. As far as Open Office - my business partner uses it and it's a bit of a pain for me to have to convert to a format that he is able to use (his version doesn't support docx). Access vs. mySQL, maybe. mySQL vs. MS SQL or Oracle? - mySQL falls way short in terms of features and tools. If open source works for you, use it.

[GamesSmash]

I've read their EULA for Microsoft Visual C++ Express 2005 and found something very disturbing.

So Microsoft doesn't sue me for posting a part of their EULA here, you all can check it at number 19 in their EULA.1033.txt (search for it in program files).

One thing it says (to my reading comprehension knowledge) is that you can only claim $5.00 if Microsoft breaches the contract even if Microsoft knew they were breaching it.

In other words: Microsoft can strip you bear of your source code for $5.00.

I think some countries don't allow a clause like this, but I don't know about that.

Note: This is just what I understood. I am not a lawyer, but I believe this is true.

[bitshifter420]

Personally I'd go Dev C++ anyway. MS has a bad habit of remaking standards their way and their compilers don't follow C++ compliance 100% and do weird stuff.

For example, try compiling this code on a ms compiler:

for(int i=0;i<10;i++)
{
cout<<"something"<<endl;
}

for(int i=0;i<10;i++)
{
cout<<"something else"<<endl;
}

You'll get an error in the 2nd loop that i is already initialized! That's wrong, it should fall out of scope at the end of the first loop. Not with ms!

I'm sure there's more stuff too.


If you're planing to do strictly ms code (.net) VS is ok, but for general C++ where you'd like to go cross platform dev c++ is more compliant. Lot of stuff that compiles in dev c++ will also compile in g++.

Dev-C++ lets you get away with a lot of things, not good, not bad.
Ive been using the MS compiler for development because it is a bit more strict.
Sometimes the discrepencies kick me in the butt.
But it Dev-C++ using mingw is a aslo a good compiler.
I think that Red Squirrels code sample should be illegal.