programming jobs without degree

[Feoggou]

to ninja9578:

Do you know OpenGL? The OpenGL API is bigger than the entirety of STL, and a must for graphics programming

Don't know OpenGL at all. I've started learning D3D but I'm still on the "starter" level. I'm using the book called "Introduction to 3D Game Programming with DirectX 10.chm", but it seems it's hard because I got to chapter 5 (which includes 18 topics) but I can't apply any of the topic in my program until I finish reading all the chapter. i.e. I can't start drawing a cube before writing an effect file and write a vertex shader and a pixer shader, and all the stuff is the entire chapter 5 - It's much easier for me if it is given a small info that you apply, see how it is, play with the code a bit, and then go to the next step. The other problem is that DirectX has functions that deal with mathematical issues like rotations. But if I know well, OpenGL does not use such things. So I have to learn Maths applied in game programming. By the way, do you know a good book for beginners on D3D 10?

to nuzzle:

Gaming AI is no fake. Just because some decisions can't wait doesn't mean it's not AI. When there's time the game AI can plan carefully otherwise it makes quick decisions.

The only AI I've learnt is basic A*. The rest of AI is my logic (i.e. you think about how things should be done). Something tells me I know the basics for pretty many things, but I'm "really good" at none.

to nuzzle:

To make it happen you need a theoretical foundation and the fastest and easiest way to get one is by the way of a degree.

Now I don't pretty understand well what you guys mean of "degree": you mean some kind of test that says how much you know? or some kind of courses that teach you something? Well, as I don't have a job yet, I might not have the money for such thing. And I don't think it's the brightest idea to seek a job where I'm gonna sell cookies, thus losing 8 hours or more per day, for that. So self-teaching sounds a better idea. I really think it's best to get hired as a c++ programmer rather than something totally alien to it.

If you had what it takes to get a job as game programmer or phone-app developer or whatever you'd already been busy doing it. It's a characteristic of the self-taught programmer.

I'm only close to it. I think. I've sent a CV for a job, filled an online test - and that was my first c++ test outside school and the only thing that gave me an idea about what programming elements I should expect to use. I'm still frustrated of not studying properly STL before (I was thinking even that making lists classes myself would be a better idea), because, for instance, I didn't know how to delete an element of a vector (STL) if the elements are pointers to structures. Now I didn't receive the result of the test yet, hope It'll be ok and I could go to the next test as well. Now I'm re-learning some C++ stuff from C++ The Complete Reference 4th edition, to be sure that I fix things that escaped me.

to JohnW@Wessex:

it might sound odd, but what is "design patterns"? I've heard the term before but I don't know what it refers to.

More important to us is their employment history including responsibilities and demonstration of creative thinking. These skills are much more valued by us than pure knowledge. Knowledge is good, but wisdom is even better.

I'm curios of something, if you wish to tell me: how would you regard a person that wants to be hired as a c++ programmer in the game programming field (for the first time, last summer has finished the faculty), that has 6/7 years of c++ programming at home (self teaching), alone, and his knowledge and wisdom are the result of what he put his hands on (he applied his c++ skills mostly for windows api, mfc) , what he found interesting to learn and the programs he needed to make (e.g. an aplication for sending files & folders, a faster search than the Windows Vista & 7 search and with more search options than it), who's teachings of programming learnt at faculty are useless for any real job (so he can really say that he learnt programming at home), and whose math skill are rusty (linear algebra, geometry, etc.), and who wishes to learn D3D but he is still a starter.

I'll explaini "rusty knowledge" of linear algebra below:
he tried to learn linear algebra at school, though the teachers were not caring too much of making the notions resemble something in real life (e.g. a definition like: it is called X something that respects the following conditions: a., b., c. . - and one makes him think, but what ACTUALLY is that?), the course was 14 weeks (2 courses each week), which was in the first year of faculty, after which the knowledge was never used. So this "knowledge" of linear algebra only makes it easier for him to learn linear algebra properly and more easily (e.g. from an ebook of maths applied in game programming) than someone that never interacted with it.

If I am right to feel inferior, perhaps you can give me some advices what to do (please).

[JohnW@Wessex]

That's more a personality trait than an education vs. non-education thing.

You're probably right there. I still think that too much conditioning can make it harder for a person to see that there are many more viewpoints than they realise and just accept the status quo. I don't know whether I just met the wrong sort of music students, but i found that their years of exposure to western music theory often cringed when I exposed them to alternative scales (often far eastern, such as Gamalan). "That sounds awful, it's so out of tune!"

[JohnW@Wessex]

it might sound odd, but what is "design patterns"? I've heard the term before but I don't know what it refers to.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_...ter_science%29

[ninja9578]

DirectX pretty much limits you to Windows and XBox. Most games now are cross platform, they either have a compatibility layer to switch between the two at compile time, or they are pure OpenGL. Nintendo is still the dominate gaming platform, the PS3 is nipping at it's heels, and iOS is number 3. None of those use D3D. I have a few friends in the gaming industry, none of them have any DirectX knowledge.

[JohnW@Wessex]

If I am right to feel inferior, perhaps you can give me some advices what to do (please).

Unless you have a good coding track record born out by a CV and references then you will have to show the prospective employer that you do have the skills that they need or have the capacity and willingness to learn them. Very few candidates are perfect for the job they apply for. The employer usually looks for a reasonably good fit to the requirements and expects the candidate to be willing to learn the rest without too much hand holding. Having written several applications yourself and being self taught will be a plus point (give them links to the source code?) though no coder becomes great in isolation from his or her peers and they may be wary that your coding style may not be very well developed. Enthusiasm and willingness to learn count, though you may have to put up with a few mundane jobs until you have proved yourself.
Don't get the impression that all computer science graduates can code. A good many couldn't program an application to save their life, in a real world job. (We've met them at interview)

[monarch_dodra]

it might sound odd, but what is "design patterns"? I've heard the term before but I don't know what it refers to.

Honestly, if someone I was interviewing said that, I'd just end the interview right there and then. I wouldn't really care how many years of "self taught" experience they have.

That is the problem with "Self Taught". Its not a question of having or not having a given skill, its a matter of amount of background, and (proven) ability to learn said skill.

The point in having a degree is not just saying "I am skilled at programming", but saying "I've learned already learned tons of things. I've graduated, which proves I can (and will) learn the required skills, and anything else you'll potentially throw at me. I have a background in Math, Physics, Algorithm and Economy, so I can understand the point of the project, and, maybe eventually lead its development. I will not stare at you like a retard every time you mention things like Fourier Transform or Logarithmic Scale. I can think for Myself".

Without a degree you might be able to get a job, but as a tech rank. And probably stay there.

Anyways, that's my view on the thing. As was also mentioned, a Degree, regardless of what, is better than nothing. The sole fact that you have a degree means you actually took the time and effort to take and stick to a cursus, and that is already something employers will appreciate. Saying "6 years of self taught" means nothing.

[Lindley]

Don't know OpenGL at all. I've started learning D3D but I'm still on the "starter" level. I'm using the book called "Introduction to 3D Game Programming with DirectX 10.chm", but it seems it's hard because I got to chapter 5 (which includes 18 topics) but I can't apply any of the topic in my program until I finish reading all the chapter. i.e. I can't start drawing a cube before writing an effect file and write a vertex shader and a pixer shader, and all the stuff is the entire chapter 5 - It's much easier for me if it is given a small info that you apply, see how it is, play with the code a bit, and then go to the next step. The other problem is that DirectX has functions that deal with mathematical issues like rotations. But if I know well, OpenGL does not use such things. So I have to learn Maths applied in game programming. By the way, do you know a good book for beginners on D3D 10?

Any 3D library is going to involve rotations and translations and other matrix math operations. Probably some splines too. Yes, there's a fair bit of math you need to understand.

I'm surprised that D3D would require you to do all that extra stuff just to draw a cube. In OpenGL you certainly *can* specify textures and shaders and whatnot, but you don't have to for basic drawing.....

[ninja9578]

You might want to pick up "The Red Book." It's a very good tool for OpenGL.

And as mentioned before, don't think you are inferior because of your lack of a degree. I had a professor (PhD) who couldn't program to save his life. How he even got a doctorate is beyond me. Degrees just help because they filter out unskilled programmers. USUALLY someone with a degree is a decent programmer, but not always. That helps in an interview, but if you can demonstrate a high level of skill, most employers (I hope) will overlook the lack of a degree. However, if they have two candidates who seem equally skilled, they will probably pick the one with the degree.

[JohnW@Wessex]

Without a degree you might be able to get a job, but as a tech rank. And probably stay there.

That's where I started. But not where I have ended up.

A degree may give you a bit of a step up at first, but at my age degrees are what happened 30 years ago and appear at the least interesting end of the CV.

[ninja9578]

@JohnW http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2010-12-23/ :P

I think after only a few years, the lack of a degree shouldn't hold you back. A few years in the field show that you know what you're doing, and you have to skill to stay with it. By that time, performance matters, not credentials. I've only been out of school for a few years, but in my last interview, they weer more interested in my sourceforge projects and my publications than my education.

[JohnW@Wessex]

@JohnW http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2010-12-23/ :P

At least I don't have a 'comb-over'.

[stevenpalomino]

wow.. i did not expect this to turn into a huge debate :P

I was just wondering if it was actually possible to get a good job without a degree. I'm studying computer animation but programming really interests me.. i imagine being a vfx artist with programming experience would be more desirable than just someone who's a vfx artist eh?

[monarch_dodra]

wow.. i did not expect this to turn into a huge debate :P

I was just wondering if it was actually possible to get a good job without a degree. I'm studying computer animation but programming really interests me.. i imagine being a vfx artist with programming experience would be more desirable than just someone who's a vfx artist eh?

That's one of the questions I wanted to ask you. You say you want to be a game "Developper", but do you realize most game developers are not programmers per say? Half of them are artists, and the other half are designer. Provided you're not developing a render engine or whatever of course.

The importing things to master are not OpenGL/Direct3D/C++, but whatever program you will use to model stuff in game.

While you *might* get a job without a degree, if at all possible, I would HIGHLY recommend you take a course in any school, if even for a single year. The point is not necessarily to learn skills, but at least to know the universe, the tools, the techniques etc...

What you can also do is take internships, during or after your degree. Businesses are much less strict on interns because A: If they suck they just leave after 6 months; B: They don't have high hopes to begin with. If you are as motivated as you say you are, it'll show, and they might hire you after the internship. If not, you'll have an actual work experience, which is also a major +. Finally, you might be able to get a recommendation.

So yeah. My advice to you is that if you are really motivated, give yourself the tools to succeed. Don't just charge head down asking for a job. You'll not only not get it, you'll be filed in your future employers' files as "Bad Candidate".

Good Luck

[Feoggou]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_...ter_science%29

you said before:

Any applicant that doesn't have a firm knowledge of templates, inheritance, polymorphism, design patterns etc. are going to find it difficult to regulate changes.

I've read from the link a large list of patterns. does this "firm knowledge of ... design patterns" means learning all patterns?

[Feoggou]

Enthusiasm and willingness to learn count, though you may have to put up with a few mundane jobs until you have proved yourself.

what are these mundane jobs you mean? a non-game field programming first? a small game developping company that doesn't do great games?