College or No College :: Future

[kuphryn]

Hi.

I met C++ in September 2001. We immediately found a common interest in software design and implementation.

I am currently a senior at a college. I am way behind schedule though. My goal is to graduate within four years and no more. However, I ran behind a long the way because I have to take courses that are not related to programming and some courses have to be taken in a certain order. I will not graduate until after Fall 2003. Anyways, I really want to work on real software projects and not pay for an education I could get just via books from Amazon.com.

I am confident in my ability to learn any material related to computer science from hardware to software, and especially programming C/C++, Windows, and Winsock, 16-bit, 32-bit, 64-bit ASM. From my perspective, anything is possible. You just need to buy a book! Heck, college professors use the same books I could buy from Amazon. I have studied from books that they found difficult including MFC, Winsock, and Windows programming. My concern is really why do you have to pay so much money ($$$) for an "education" you could get via books from Amazon.com?

Please understand I am not boasting. I just feel that I am in a situation now where college is and will slow my progress as a programmer and it is and will continue to fade that passion and desire I have for software design and implementation. I want to work on real projects including real problems and real applications. The project we do are jokes. For example, the professor in an OOP C++ course I am required to take does not like me because I rush the class. The class does not teach me anything as far as software design and implemention. Everything comes from C++ How to Program by Deitel&Deitel which I read a year ago!

I would like to know the importance of a college degree specifically computer science. For example, let say two applicants apply for the same entry position. One applicant has a BS in CS, but has no experience working on real applications ourside of college (note employers do not know this). The second applicant has very good experience for an entry position and can get the job done if given an opportunity. What do you think will happen?

Many "successful" people are college-dropouts including Bill Gates and Michael Dell. I have no problem staying in college; however, I honestly feel it is slowing my progress as a programmer. I really do. How do *you* know when it is time to call it quit?

Thanks,
Kuphryn

[jfaust]

Three points:

1. You'll learn more at a job than you ever will in school.
2. That piece of paper is worth a lot of money and will give you more oppurtunities.
3. Every interviewer will ask you why you quit college. There's no good answer to a question like that.

I suggest you finish school.

Jeff

[kuphryn]

Okay. Thanks.

Money is really never my concern. Really. I really enjoy what I do. I do not plan to apply to only "big buck" jobs. I want to work in an environment where I get to work with people who enjoy software design and implementation just like myseft.

I have another question.

I will probably stay, NOT because I want to stay, but because of fear. What is the best way to improving my experience as a software engineer? I am working on projects including MFC and Winsock. What can I do to improve my experience "on the side" or "hidden" as only employers will recognize it because I now very well by now professors do not care.

Kuphryn

[proxima centaur]

I would like to know the importance of a college degree specifically computer science. For example, let say two applicants apply for the same entry position. One applicant has a BS in CS, but has no experience working on real applications ourside of college (note employers do not know this). The second applicant has very good experience for an entry position and can get the job done if given an opportunity. What do you think will happen?


The first applicant will be considered.
The second applicant might be considered if the employer is not too tired to bother look at the resume, but it is not safe.

If the second applicant is noticed, it will get an interview, and based on his/her knowledge might actually be hired. However, the employer will likely offer less money than if the applicant had a diploma.



Many "successful" people are college-dropouts including Bill Gates and Michael Dell. I have no problem staying in college; however, I honestly feel it is slowing my progress as a programmer. I really do. How do *you* know when it is time to call it quit?


These are exceptions. I'm not saying everybody without a diploma is not successful, he/she is just less likely to be.
Ask yourself why studying is slowing you as a programmer. If it is so easy, then why are you whinning? Just do the exams and homework! If it is because you have a hard time succeeding, then maybe you HAVE something to learn!!!!

From your comment, you seem to fall in the category of "bored but clever". Then, just do the exams, homework, don't attend class and work on cool projects during daytime. How about that?

[proxima centaur]

Originally posted by kuphryn
What is the best way to improving my experience as a software engineer? I am working on projects including MFC and Winsock. What can I do to improve my experience "on the side" or "hidden" as only employers will recognize it because I now very well by now professors do not care.

Best way of gaining experience? Self-explanatory. Experiment!

Code, design, make mistakes.

Work on different type of projects. Databases are different from web based apps and they are also different from engineering apps or real-time apps or... and the list goes on and on.

Other way of learning? Ask questions. Preferably to an experienced programmer or software designer who can give you tips about how to do things.

I personally learn a lot from watching others code.

[kuphryn]

Thanks.

You are right on. I study for all classes completely via books. I only take notes if the material is not in a book, which is rare.

Really, the problem I am in really comes down to time. I have two choice, one is to go through the "procedure" and play the system; however, I could lose valuable time where I could be working on real projects with other programmers and software engineers. On the other hand, I could look for an intern position and if I get it, I will definitely not be able to graduate anytime soon. A typical internship asks for 20-30 hours a week.

I have no problem with college. I just want the professor to move faster and teach at a rate that all computer science students *should* be taught and not some average time-table. Furthermore, they do not give out real project such as real applications. For example, consider a software project such as a real game where we maybe half the class work as a team.

Kuphryn

[proxima centaur]

I understand your position. Although I myself needed school to get through in life (and still need it!)

Maybe the problem then is the school. Maybe you need to find a school that suits you. Have you tried to apply to other colleges or universities abroad?

Anyway, if you are like me, you didn't have the choice but to go to the local college/university out of $ concerns, mostly

I feel you should really play the system as it will pay down the road.

And as I pointed out in my previous post, you can always kick yourself in the butt and have a tight schedule and run a project for yourself. Don't tell me you don't have time for that. If you think that, stop watching TV, stop doing useless stuff on the internet (but keep checking codeguru!!!) and get your *** in gear mister! I know what I'm talking about. I'm working full time right now and doing my masters degree part time. It is hard work, but I know it will pay off eventually.

Your only enemy is your motivation (or lack thereof).

Good luck!

[kuphryn]

Thanks.

I understand that employers places great emphasis on a college degree. However, to this day I still do not understand the reason behind it.

1) College graduates do not "give up." Okay. Yes, maybe the they stayed and finished their degrees. However, how can you judge someone without giving the person a real shot at the job? Furthermore, I am even more perplexed as far as the fact (or myth) that college graduates can "demand" more money. What kind of a system is that? I have a college degree, so I should get more money and do less work. Let the people without college degrees work!

2) College graduates are "smart." Ahhh. I definitely believe that is a myth. There are extremely intelligent people who do not care about college. To be honest, I do not see myself as "smart." All I can say is that my classmates at my college do not impress me. Well, only a dozen or so who are in the ACM team are quit impressive. Educate any normal person and the outcome is the same.

Kuphryn

[proxima centaur]

Originally posted by kuphryn
Thanks.

I understand that employers places great emphasizes on a college degree. However, to this day I still do not understand the reason behind it.

Unfortunately, although I agree with you the emphasis is not always justified, it is a matter of fact. That's how it is nowadays, you either try to change it, which is impossible, or you live with it.
That's something you'll have to accept. You'll find that in your everyday work, the best solution for most people is the fastest (thus less costy) solution. If the person who hires in the company decides to search for a computer scientist, his/her task is so much simpler if he/she decides that the candidate must at least have a degree in comp. sc. Of course, this might be overkill for the job, but it insures that she'll get "ofiicially" worthy candidates. Although some incompetent graduates might end up in the roll of interviews. *shrug*

1) College graduates do not "give up." Okay. Yes, maybe the they stayed and finished their degrees. However, how can you judge someone without giving the person a real shot at the job?

They don't judge the person, they simply dismiss him/her on the assumption that as a whole, they are wasting their time looking for someone who doesn't have a degree, but has an equivalent experience. It's a matter of statistics. If 10% of people without a degree are potential good candidates, this means that if they look for somebody without a diploma, they'll waste 90% of their time, whereas, if only 10% of persons with diplomas are bad at what they do, they only waste 10% of their time. Time is money. Money rules the world (Ok... not only money, sex too )

Furthermore, I am even more perplexed as far as the fact (or myth) that college graduates can "demand" more money. What kind of a system is that? I have a college degree, so I should get more money and do less work. Let the people without college degrees work!

That's just as illogical as the fact that some young employees work more, faster and work overtime and get paid less when older employees do 9-5 and are outdated yet make twice as much as you do. Experience pays. That's dumb, but that's how society work. Can't change that unfortunatly.

It also has to do with offer and demand. There is less bachelors graduate than undergraduate, there are less master degree graduates than bachelors graduates and there is less Ph.Ds than master degree graduates. As you go up in the hierarchy, your market value rises. Simple.

2) College graduates are "smart." Ahhh. I definitely believe that is a myth. There are extremely intelligent people who do not care about college. To be honest, I do not see myself as "smart." All I can say is that my classmates at my college do not impress me. Well, only a dozen or so who are in the ACM team are quit impressive. Educate any normal person and the outcome is the same.

That is entirely true. However, employers go with the assumption that the colleges and universities do not graduate people that don't fullfil the requirements for a degree. To an employer, someone with a degree is like having an insurance policy, the guarantee being the college or university reputation. Whether this is the truth or not is a matter of debate. However, from experience, people with some kind of a degree tend to have better skills as a whole, as opposed to be very skilled at very little part of a subject.

Again, just my opinion

[kuphryn]

I acknowledge your points.

I agree with the your overall "statistical" analysis. Agree or not, people with college degrees do have to at least go to class once or twice to take exams. That is hard work!!!

Kuphryn

[proxima centaur]

I feel your pain

[kevin.horgan]

Hi there,

For my two cents worth, I would recommend finishing your course.
Your views about the real value of the piece of paper my be right but atleast the piece of paper shows employers 1) That you have the self discipline to start and finish something of significant effort, even if the only significant variable you see is your time and 2) It is a base line qualification employers can use to make the first cut of CVs and may do just that when comparing you to others for a job.

If you really want to get going coding real projects and moving beyond the text books then look at the many open source projects at http://www.gnu.org/ or http://savannah.gnu.org/ for example. There are many significant projects underway there including game development which you mentioned in one of your emails. You will not earn any money doing this but you have a chance to work on real software solutions and together with very experienced technologist in many cases. It is also something you could then add to your CV or resume when you start looking for a job as real experience.

I wish you luck.

Kevin

[kuphryn]

Okay. I appreciate your thought.

You and all other members all share the same thought about the importance of a degree from an employer's perspective. That is not my call and is something that every employees have to get used to.

Looking from an employer's perspective, I do understand the importance of a college degree. One reason and is something I appreciate about college as well is that college forces students to learn subjects they would otherwise not study or even know they exist. College produces "well-rounded" people. Maybe I do not know "1 + 2 = 3," but because of college I know that "a + b = c" does exists.

You asked another of my question about finding projects to work on. I know about GNU but have not considered looking into working on GNU projects. I will definitely visit their website.

Kuphryn

[kbomb987]

to the original poster:

dude you have no clue on what the real world is like for a software engineer. its kinda of funny how naive you are actually.

for one thing, you will never get a girl because there are almost none in this field. second, you will get sunburn from sitting in front of a monitor glow all day long (9-10 hrs a day). third you will forget how to speak normally because you'll be too used to saying thins like "the dcx is not responding across the bipolar crosshash multiplatform acg we need 2.2 version 3.45x T2 modular wavetables of di-flops" etc. (pretty good eh?). the pay is great though.

anyway, in summary. finish school. if anything in life, you can tell people you're educated ok?

[kuphryn]

Okay. Thanks.

kbomb987,

Hey. I do not mind design software and implementing solutions for 13-14 hours a day. If it were up to me, I never want to communicate with real people except via forums and design and implement software applications until I can no longer open my eyes.

You brought up and interesting point about how a college degree offers a person respect from her/his peers. I definitely agree, but again I cannot understand the reason and logic behind it.

"Hey, you should like me because I have a college degree. I am educated. I have no idea how I can and *will* contribute to mankind, but hey, I HAVE A COLLEGE DEGREE."

Kuphryn