Sad thread

[Gabriel Fleseriu]

Originally posted by John E
Hi Andy - you're spot on in saying that CodeGuru doesn't distinguish people on the basis of their programming knowledge. I'm just asking the question "is this a good thing or a bad thing?" Should there be a minimum level of skill required in order to post freely? People without that level of skill could still post in their own special forum - where they could still obtain help from any CodeGuru member. That forum could also be used for quarantining people who violate the rules. Maybe they could be sent there for a while instead of being banned.

People get banned mostly because they (repeatedly) post noise in the tech forums and/or massively cross the line in the Chit/Chat Forum. I am pozitively sure that no one ever got banned for asking dumb questions. Not to speak of the fact that monitoring each new user and deciding whether he/she is fit enough for the forums is hard work and also unpleasant for the new users. So, in my oppinion, a "Beginners" forum doesn't make much sense. I'd rather seek for a way to have beginners read the FAQ and search the forums before they ask questions.

[VuQ_Le]

How did you figure what the heck I was talking about ?
I didn't see any point as what you commented or you 're showing me your sensitive_NESS to what you get accustomed to everyday huh ?

I was talking about me, is it ok for you ?

[VuQ_Le]

Can i say that I just puked, and crawled out from my toilet ?
I still feel sour and disgusting,
bitter is my throat !
I shouldn't have drunk that much

[Doctor Luz]

Originally posted by John E
Poor old Homestead has been banned.

This brings me back to the paddling pool idea. Is there a case for some sort of “absolute beginners” forum? A kind of “quarantine” area where everybody would have to go (when they first join) until a moderator decides they’re fit to be let loose in the rest of the site? As Andreas pointed out, the moderators already do a fair bit of “weeding” to remove posts that will just annoy everybody, so maybe it isn’t necessary – or maybe a quarantine area could be a better way of doing it. Either way, it’s just a thought…..

Any views....?

Supposing that you are a completely begginer, realy would you like that? would you return a second time to this site?

Probably I would not return.

I think it is a very bad idea.

[Brad Jones]

What we need to do (in my opinion, as a thought 'off the cuff') is to make it easier for beginners to find materials on the main site.

One of the things that I've started is sets of tutorials that teach languages. We have a C# one started by Anand. I want to do a C++ and a VB one as well. This will give us an easy place to direct beginners to read and find answers to their basic questions.

While creating special forums sounds like a great idea, what we've seen is that most beginners jump right into the primary forums and start asking their questions. We could do things with "rights" to keep people in different places; however, that brings in a number of additional issues as well as work that would need to be done to manage and subjectively decide who gets switched and when. With hundreds of thousands of people coming to this site, I don't think a manual process is realistic.

- This is a short answer. There is a lot more to be said, however, I need to step away. Later, I'll try to address this a little more as well as some of the other issues that have been raised in this thread.

John E - Keep making your constructive suggestions. They are appreciated.


Brad!

[John E]

Originally posted by Brad Jones
John E - Keep making your constructive suggestions. They are appreciated.

Thank you Brad. I think it's important for people to realise, as you clearly do, that CodeGuru is a brand. It's a very, very good brand but, like all brands, it can easily become devalued if its custodians don't do enough to protect it.

I think it's great news that you guys are considering more help and guidance for beginners. Some beginners here (and I stress some) are definitely in danger of 'diluting the brand'. Without proper help and guidance, these minor problems can soon escalate and end up as more major problems. Keep up the good work!

[mdmd]

Originally by Andreas
in other words posts that violate the Acceptable Use Policy...

I was looking for the AUP a couple times this past week. Some
faq link or something said it was at the bottom of the forums
page. Huh, its over at internet.com.

Originally by VuQ_Le
Advanced programmers will always know how to select the best
functions in the API_system call interface so that their project could be completed on time.

I wouldn't say always.Someone always knows something better.

Originally by Andreas
Besides that...we (as moderators) will get this unsuitable behaviour out of public eyes...

Perhaps we could have a "Censored by CodeGuru" private thread to view these posts. A time
to lay back and relax when the chit-chat thread goes wackey.

Originally by John E
Poor old Homestead has been banned.

She was my little friend.She had some pretty good 'back at ya's' that have me chuckling
right now.

[Andreas Masur]

Originally posted by John E
Some beginners here (and I stress some) are definitely in danger of 'diluting the brand'. Without proper help and guidance, these minor problems can soon escalate and end up as more major problems.

Can you explain further? It looks like you are referring to actual persons which came to the board as beginners and got a bad impression (I am not familiar with the word 'diluting', thus I might actually be wrong in my assumption). I would like to know how?

Aren't they are treated right by answering their questions? Were the provided answers too 'high-level'? Without getting to know what these beginners actually think it was wrong, it is much harder to change anything - as usual, you do not change anything as long as you think everything is okay...from your point of view.

[John E]

Hi Andreas – I’ll have to be brief about this because I’m just about to go into a meeting. I think this is a bit like skiiing. When someone first learns to ski, you don’t send them straight out onto the main slopes with the big boys. You put them onto the nursery slopes for a while until they’ve proven themselves to have a certain level of expertise. Same with a golf club. You don’t take every applicant’s word for it that he can handle a set of golf clubs. If you did, half of them would be churning up the greens and spoiling it for the others. In fact, most clubs and societies have some minimum entry level. It’s not unusual.

Earlier today, I answered a post from someone who sounded as though he was asking how to go about distributing a computer virus. If indeed that was his intention, he shouldn’t have got onto the site in the first place. If genuine programmers come to the site and see questions like that, it will ultimately damage CodeGuru’s reputation. Equally, if people keep visiting the site and seeing the same very basic questions being asked over and over again, they’ll end up going somewhere else. Would that be CodeGuru’s loss or theirs? I don’t know the answer. I’m just asking the question.

[Mick]

if we had more FAQ's.....problem is 'we' don't have the time to write them. Wish there was someone that you know... that did, and we could comment on them...

too many repeat questions....

[aio]

Originally posted by John E
...
If genuine programmers come to the site and see questions like that, it will ultimately damage CodeGuru’s reputation. Equally, if people keep visiting the site and seeing the same very basic questions being asked over and over again, they’ll end up going somewhere else. Would that be CodeGuru’s loss or theirs? I don’t know the answer. I’m just asking the question.

I'm sorry to disagree with you John. As long as visitors also see that the site is being policed, I don't think it will be affected. It is already a common knowledge (and most of us can understand it) that no matter how noble the purpose of the site, it will always be distrubed by some lost souls from time to time. I can't recall where I have seen it but in the past I saw one forum that devote itself to the teachings of God yet there are still some who would sneak in topics such as sex and violence.

[aio]

Originally posted by Mick
...
too many repeat questions....

Isn't it that that makes the site active?

Everyday there are always beginners. There will come a time when FAQ becomes so big -- it would be much easier to ask question (regardless if repeatition) than scanning FAQs.

[Mick]

Originally posted by John E

Earlier today, I answered a post from someone who sounded as though he was asking how to go about distributing a computer virus. If indeed that was his intention, he shouldn’t have got onto the site in the first place. If genuine programmers come to the site and see questions like that, it will ultimately damage CodeGuru’s reputation.

generally those are easy to catch, because they are way overreaching in their skill level, if they have any at all. Though there have been some that have elicited a couple of responses until it gets to the point, where your pretty sure, and you just stop responding...the mod's do a good job of cleaning up the blatant ones. There are valid reasons for doing something that may or may not seem like cracker,cyberpunk intentions....

But only the shadow knows what lies in thier hearts

[Mick]

Originally posted by aio
Isn't it that that makes the site active?

Everyday there are always beginners. There will come a time when FAQ becomes so big -- it would be much easier to ask question (regardless if repeatition) than scanning FAQs.

It's fine to post the question without reading the FAQ's though I think people that do, need some schooling on research skills, never the less. But if we have generally acceptable FAQ's on how to resolve said issue being posted, then it's easier for members to direct the OP to the link and say READ THIS, rather than repeating in so many different ways how to go about it.

The FAQ's only become unwieldy if the are arranged in a way that makes them so.

[Andreas Masur]

Okay....I will try to answer several posts here, so please bare with me if I do not quote explicitly...

I can see the point about learning how to ski or how to play golf. However, in my eyes you cannot compare that necessarely. I do not think that you should categorize people based on their knowledge. Think about a person that has the most important question in his eyes (and it might actually be the most important question for him since he desparately needs to solve his current problem). For many others here this question actually might be something you would do at night while sleeping. Nevertheless, the beginner should get the same technically correct answer as a genius would get, however, if you as an experienced programmer see that the solution to his/her question is beyond his/her current scope of knowledge, you simply could add a small comment stating this. Of course not in the way like 'You are too dump for this', nevertheless a small indication like 'This is a very complex topic which requires in-depth knowlegde about this and that, so you should first get this knowledge to actually understand what is going on and why the mentioned solution is the correct one' would help...okay...maybe you should use a little bit shorter sentence but I guess you get my point.

In regard to the experienced developers coming here...if you would follow the rule, that new members should start within their own playground, we would need to get the experienced developer as well into that kindergarten. I would think, he would not even bother to post one answer...

And having a kind of test to determine the amount of knowledge is of course neither practical nor suitable.

I agree definitely, that we need far more FAQs though. The problem is simply to get people to actually write some and submit them. If you look at the current FAQs, you will notice that all of them are submitted by a very few number of members. I agree of course that a beginner would not necessarely be able to provide an in-depth FAQ about a topic, however, there are definitely more members than these few which could provide a FAQ. Nevertheless, as being mentioned, for many of us it is of course an issue of getting the time to actually write some.

The FAQs of course should be somehow easy accessible and there should preferrable be the ability of doing a search within them. This if not the case at the moment, however, we are continously trying to improve the site and the forum. Any ideas etc. are more than welcome and can be sent to any moderator or to the Feedback forum.

I guess I have more or less answered all of the mentioned points...if not, simply yell at me...