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Hey all,
I was just curious to those of you who have been around the coding business for a while and maybe even to some of you who hire programmers. Is it even possible to get a job as a programmer without having a degree? Say I'm self-taught. Will I have any chances to get a job as a programmer? I know in the 3D field people don't care about your degree and only look at your reel. What about in the programming world?
thanks!
As far as I know programmer is not a regulated profession in most countries, so if you have deep special and proven skills I'm sure you can find a job also without formal education. But to build a successful lifelong career a degree is a much safer bet.Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenpalomino
not just degree , plus industry certification like MCSE , Cisco cert , have you ever seen the MVP's in this forum they love to flash it around and it pays, lets face it not everyone is Google.
Experience is more important than a degree, but getting started without a degree or some kind of certification will be tough. If you just had self-taught on a resume, and no experience, I wouldn't call you. About the only way I think you could do it would be if you already work for a company and they let you start taking on programming assignments and you work your way into it. Getting hired with nothing would be next to impossible I would think.
I tend to find that the self-taught programmers can either be really good, or really bad. I've known self taught guys who have come up with some of the most sophisticated and well-built software I've ever seen, but I've also seen the flip side of that. The degree helps filter out the bottom group of programmers, so if you are just starting out, it may be more difficult to get a job as a programmer than if you have a degree. However, if you have experience and products, I think you shouldn't have much trouble. Skilled engineers are in high demand.
What is a certification? Is it like a degree but in shorter time or an add-on to a degree?
Various companies will certify that you are competent with their products. http://www.microsoft.com/learning/en...w-by-name.aspxQuote:
Originally Posted by stevenpalomino
Also, there are trade schools that will give you a crash course in programming. While not up there with a 4 year degree, a trade school certificate is way better than nothing.
Ahh okay.. Would anyone recommend online schooling? I'm looking into the game design program at full sail university and it's got a LOT of programming.. Has anyone heard of it or taken it?
How are we to know that your self-teaching was any good? Do you have experience putting all the concepts from the book into practical applications, or are you just big on theory? Do you know the best practices, or is your code going to make other programmers wince? (To be fair, that's the case even with many degree holders....)Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenpalomino
Just to let you know, game development is actually one of the more difficult programming niches to get into, and they usually do require degrees.
And it seems like that's what a lot of the younger people are studying. If you go into game development, there'll be a lot of competition from people with degrees.Quote:
Originally Posted by ninja9578
If the experience of the company I work for is anything to go by, then realtime, multithreaded, low level C/C++, hardware interfacing, comm protocols etc. is wide open. We need a new engineer to replace me (time to move on to pastures new; and more money :)) for which I've been writing interview questions to help filter out candidates on second interviews. So far nobody has got past the first. A lot of the candidates seem to major in Java, others are graduates with plenty of Matlab skills but no commercial experience, and both usually have little C++ experience. We had one older candidate who new C++, but his examples were very basically C with some classes thrown in.Quote:
Originally Posted by GCDEF
it seems that's a kind of problem for me too. I have taught myself C++ and applied only the things I saw I needed. it's a bit of a problem as I don't know exactly what to specialize in (e.g. I don't think it's good idea to learn from scratch I don't know what linked list or tree when STL already uses good ones).
I've started learning C++ from C++ the Complete Reference before C++ got standardized the second time (I think it was the first edition), so it lacked STL and modern programming. As time moved on I started getting into Windows programming (win api and mfc), and only later found out that C++ improved in time (and I got other editions of C++ The Complete Reference). I lack knowledge in STL as I didn't use them too much in my programs - and I even implemented a double linked list that, if it contains pointers it deletes them when it must(using a pointer to a function: the programmer that uses the list creates the function to delete an object - e.g. using CoTaskMemFree or delete) and has other attributes. The great problem with this is that it was a big attempt to throw STL away and when I applied for a c++ job, a test I received was with STL. The same is with I/O: I preferred (and still prefer) C functions (e.g. scanf, printf) and therefore the C++ I/O didn't stick to well in my mind.
I'm interested in a career in game programming. can you guys please give me an idea what I should focus on?
it seems templates (which I did not use too often in my life) and STL are needed. Though I've not been using inheritance too much either, I can use it, and I guess pretty well. though I have no idea what kind of project I can make using extensive inheritance and virtual functions and all that goes with classes.
And this is again a great problem of self-teaching: you need to make projects. And what projects can you make except those kind that you are interested into? (e.g. a program you need). And I didn't need to much inheritance and C++ complex stuff. or perhaps they could have been used but did not came to mind or something.
another problem is that I cannot base myself on what is taught at a faculty. At least the faculty I attended (it matters which country and which town/city after all) did not teach me too much C++. That is, about 2% of what I know of C++ is found in that teaching. The same or worse is with using optimizations and advanced stuff. So it's a bit hard to get to learn c++ otherwise than self-teaching (and I don't have the money either to go I don't know where and attend I don't know what course to expect to be taught everything I need). And I really want to become a good C++ programmer.
Gaming is a huge field, what do you want to work on? Graphics, AI, networking...? Different parts of the game have different engineers who have very different skill sets.
And I disagree about the part of knowing exactly how linked lists and vectors and trees work not being necessary. How will you correctly choose your container for you case if you don't know exactly how they work. There are also cases where you may want to write your own variant of one of those. I have written my own implementations of string, vectors, lists, and trees for various reasons.
That's not always a bad starting point. I've met some really good low-level coders who stick to the C aspects of C++ (when they deign to use C++ at all). It would be nice if they could learn to write in a higher-level style most of the time, but it's also handy to have someone who can eek out every spare cycle from those inner loops when necessary.Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnW@Wessex
sincerely, I don't know. I'd love to know to program graphics, though I love AI more. I'm not interested with network programming, but if necessary, I will learn. And, besides graphics, audio, AI and networking, I don't know what other fields exist. Anyway, if it is to work as a game programmer, the least memory usage and the highest speed are the top priorities. And I think it fits in all fields of game programming. Now I don't pretty know how I can learn to do that... I mean, I can think myself of optimizing, but there's a long road until I find all things that can be optimized and how.Quote:
Originally Posted by ninja9578
Do you know OpenGL? The OpenGL API is bigger than the entirety of STL, and a must for graphics programming. EVERYTHING uses it, it has a complete monopoly on anything graphics with the exceptions of Windows gaming which doesn't really matter.
Game AI is fake AI, not true AI. It uses a lot of shortcuts and little tricks to cut down on CPU. I actually wrote a 3 part article on it a few years ago.
That's not true. Graduates also get experience and experience is much more valuable if it's on top of a thorough theoretical understanding of what you're doing. Fumbling in the dark without knowing nada is also an experience but not a very good one. By trial and error you will learn what buttons to push eventually but you'll never know why it works and if it couldn't be done better.Quote:
Originally Posted by GCDEF
Graduation gives you a jump-start and an accelerated learning curve with experience that no one without a degree can ever match (except maybe for a few geniuses).
The notion that "experience is more important than a degree" is a myth carefully guarded by people who wished they had one. It's just a way to deal with an inferiority complex. They realize what they're missing and would give their right hand to have it.
So if you want to tilt the wheel of fortune firmly in your favour - get a degree!
That's not true. Gaming matters for sure. OpenGL is no more important than Direct3D. And if need be you can learn both because they're very similar. The trend towards shaders rather than fixed pipeline has made them both less complex and more alike.Quote:
Originally Posted by ninja9578
Gaming AI is no fake. Just because some decisions can't wait doesn't mean it's not AI. When there's time the game AI can plan carefully otherwise it makes quick decisions. Also real intelligence is importance based like that. You plan ahead for what to do should the lion come closer but when it's about to bite your azz you quickly decide to run without further ado.
Okay, you have a dream. Now face reality. To make it happen you need a theoretical foundation and the fastest and easiest way to get one is by the way of a degree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Feoggou
If you had what it takes to get a job as game programmer or phone-app developer or whatever you'd already been busy doing it. It's a characteristic of the self-taught programmer. They're highly skilled in a specific area and they know where they want to work and for whom. One day they just show up at his/her office, explain what they know and what they can contribute to the company, and start coding the same day.
The problem we have is that whoever takes the reins over from me will have be the authority on changes to our now extensive, in house, template library. Most of our applications solve similar types of problems, so this library is important for getting new projects off the ground. Any applicant that doesn't have a firm knowledge of templates, inheritance, polymorphism, design patterns etc. are going to find it difficult to regulate changes. Unfortunately, when bad ideas, inadvertent or not, get into a library and used in applications, the possibility of them staying there permanently is high.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindley
what make you think that GCDEF's concept of experience fits yours "Fumbling in the dark without knowing nada" ? experience does imply an understanding of what you've done; indeed, is it possible to write a non trivial program in C++ without understanding the language in all its relevant apsects ? I would say that the probability that one happens to develop a fully functional stable non trivial program in C++ by pure chance is near zero ...Quote:
Originally Posted by nuzzle
of course, as GCDEF said, it's hard to imagine a way in which someone could hire you without any form of indipendent certification ... but saying that mere graduation implies "thorough theoretical understanding" and "a jump-start and an accelerated learning curve" is a myth as well.
Indeed, speaking about inferiority complexes, you can find them in-between any two of the multiple "degree" of graduation in both "directions" ( people with lower education criticizing higher education to justify their inability of achiving it, and people with higher education criticizing lower education to justify their inability of taking any real advantage out of it ); people deals with job-related psychological complexes indipendently of their social position or career status ... so, invoking psychological arguments is of no help here.
As other said, first level graduation acts at best as a "high-pass filter" in the labour force selection process, and only in some selected cases it's a real indication of knowledge quality.
That said, we all agree that a degree is necessary in the OP case :)
Nonsense. You can argue this until kingdom come but that won't change the fact that a bachelor's or master's degree always beats not having one. Anytime. From any perspective.Quote:
Originally Posted by superbonzo
Graduated programmers will have a much easier time both finding a job as well as keeping it because they're more resilient to technology change. They're also more likely to be paid well and get promoted.
Both graduates and non-graduates need experience to become really good. The difference is that graduates improve faster with experience.
I'm talking statistical averages here of course; graduates as a group vs. non-graduates as a group. There will always be the fool who's still a fool after graduation. And there will always be the geniuses and the lucky ones who didn't need an education at all. Especially not in hindsight. But statistically the picture is clear. You're much more likely to have a successful career as programmer with a university education than without.
Claiming that "experience is more important than a degree" is devious. It may fool people into thinking that higher education doesn't pay off. It always does.
We've had plenty of graduates who have supplemented their post university education with jobs at various establishments before coming to us for an interview. What we have learned is that while their theoretical knowledge is quite good (and their maths skills run rings around mine) they often seem to be lacking in the sort of creative (out of the box) thinking that we are after. One test is showing them an image captured by one of our applications and asking them to suggest as many different ways of finding the artefacts. Most churn out the same old set of image analysis techniques that have been around in textbooks since the 1970s. It's like they've all been conditioned to only looking at the problem one way. Having a uni education can obviously give you some good theoretical background, but we never discard a potential interviewee because of a lack of it. Sitting them down and asking questions we have seen that having a degree or not doesn't make a huge difference to their suitability for the job. More important to us is their employment history including responsibilities and demonstration of creative thinking. These skills are much more valued by us than pure knowledge. Knowledge is good, but wisdom is even better.
I don't buy that higher education should curb creativity or the ability to get wiser with age.Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnW@Wessex
But what I do have noticed is that people drawn to programming tend to be detail persons with a strong belief in authority. It's not the kind of people you would expect to get out-of-the-box thinking from. And 99% of the time that's not what you want. You want solid within-the-box thinking and results in the form of working software based on best practices and existing language features. Forcing a sensitive artistic soul bursting with creativity to spend days on end pouring over boring documentation trying to locate that last bug would be torture, wouldn't it? That kind of work calls for an introvert, a programmer.
My point is that you should look for creativity where you can expect to find it. Programmers, graduated or not graduated, generally aren't made like that. For bells and whistles and 100 ways to skin a cat you should look elsewhere.
If somebody came to me with 10 years of solid experience but no degree vs. a degree and no experience, I'd hire the guy with the track record. With equivalent experience, the degree would be the tie breaker. The degree becomes more important for management positions, but you usually won't get them without experience either.Quote:
Originally Posted by nuzzle
FWIW, I have a masters degree in computer science, and 28 years in the business, so I'm not guarding any myth because I don't have a degree or experience. I'm talking about what I've seen over the years, and what factors weigh more heavily when I decide to hire somebody.
I never said higher education doesn't pay off. Don't be fighting straw men here. But look at the questions from students here. Most of what's being taught in the schools doesn't seem like it would be particularly useful in the real world compared to what you learn on the job.Quote:
Originally Posted by nuzzle
A solid understanding of what goes on behind the scenes obviously makes for a better programmer, but you'll gain way more real world expertise your first year on the job than you will with four years of college.
That's not what i meant. It's that, until you get a bit more experience or are naturally an 'out of the box' thinker, your thinking can be be a little blinkered after being told the 'facts' for several years. I used to do a lot of music in a band years ago and used to write my own material. I had many a graduate music student tell me I was playing the 'wrong' combination of notes because "X is not in the key of Y and music theory say they don't go" or something in that vein.Quote:
Originally Posted by nuzzle
Oh dear, that makes me a misfit then! Correct on the detail, wrong on the authority.Quote:
But what I do have noticed is that people drawn to programming tend to be detail persons with a strong belief in authority.
What we want is a creative person that can implement their ideas based on best practices and existing language features. One of our most successful image processing algorithms came about after throwing out the standard book methods and indulging in a bit of imaginative brainstorming.Quote:
It's not the kind of people you would expect to get out-of-the-box thinking from. And 99% of the time that's not what you want. You want solid within-the-box thinking and results in the form of working software based on best practices and existing language features.
You seem to be pigeon-holing people into one mutually exclusive group or another, which I don't believe is valid. Give me a coder that can question the 'correct' solution and look at a problem from another angle any day.Quote:
Forcing a sensitive artistic soul bursting with creativity to spend days on end pouring over boring documentation trying to locate that last bug would be torture, wouldn't it? That kind of work calls for an introvert, a programmer.
I consider myself to be very creative (and have been thought of as such by colleagues, if I may blow my own trumpet), but I also fall definitely in to the introvert camp.
nuzzle seems to be fighting straw men here. The best programmers I know are the ones that can decompose big problems into little solvable ones. Most of them tend to be more the maverick types than those with a strong respect for authority, and they set themselves apart by being able to think outside the box and see solutions that elude others.Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnW@Wessex
That's more a personality trait than an education vs. non-education thing. Education gives you the tools, but experience gives you the wisdom of how best to use them.
If you were getting work done on your house, would you rather have a kid with a truck load of shiny tools, or a carpenter with 25 years experience and a box of well-worn tools he knew how to use?
if you are claiming that a degree makes the difference in finding an avarage job or not then, as I said at the end of my post and as everybody said in this thread, I agree with you. But claiming that this is due to a difference in knowledge quality is more debatable;Quote:
Originally Posted by nuzzle
consider an hypothetical employer that's seeking labour force; he will hire people by maximizing productivity expectations and minimizing recruitment and training costs; if the latter were negligible at maximal productivity expectations then the very existence of degrees and other form of certifications external to the considered industry would be simply unjustified from an economical viewpoint and, therefore, unfavored. This means that certification programs of any kind are not intrinsic features of education systems per se, they are essentially mechanisms by which labour economy out-sources recruitment and training for (among many other reasons) reducing costs.
Moreover, suppose ad absurdum an education system that randomly assigns grades rejecting a fixed fraction of people and a job system that strictly requires this or that education certificate in order to be hired; the sole effect of decreasing the job demand and decreasing recruitment costs makes the existence of certification programs economically favored in this case.
Of course, I'm not saying that modern education systems are like that, I'm simply saying that a rigorous analysis of employments rates relative to education certificates is greatly influenced by dynamics that have little to do with knowledge quality, creativity or any other intellectual trait ...
to ninja9578:
Don't know OpenGL at all. I've started learning D3D but I'm still on the "starter" level. I'm using the book called "Introduction to 3D Game Programming with DirectX 10.chm", but it seems it's hard because I got to chapter 5 (which includes 18 topics) but I can't apply any of the topic in my program until I finish reading all the chapter. i.e. I can't start drawing a cube before writing an effect file and write a vertex shader and a pixer shader, and all the stuff is the entire chapter 5 - It's much easier for me if it is given a small info that you apply, see how it is, play with the code a bit, and then go to the next step. The other problem is that DirectX has functions that deal with mathematical issues like rotations. But if I know well, OpenGL does not use such things. So I have to learn Maths applied in game programming. By the way, do you know a good book for beginners on D3D 10?Quote:
Do you know OpenGL? The OpenGL API is bigger than the entirety of STL, and a must for graphics programming
to nuzzle:
The only AI I've learnt is basic A*. The rest of AI is my logic (i.e. you think about how things should be done). Something tells me I know the basics for pretty many things, but I'm "really good" at none.Quote:
Gaming AI is no fake. Just because some decisions can't wait doesn't mean it's not AI. When there's time the game AI can plan carefully otherwise it makes quick decisions.
to nuzzle:
Now I don't pretty understand well what you guys mean of "degree": you mean some kind of test that says how much you know? or some kind of courses that teach you something? Well, as I don't have a job yet, I might not have the money for such thing. And I don't think it's the brightest idea to seek a job where I'm gonna sell cookies, thus losing 8 hours or more per day, for that. So self-teaching sounds a better idea. I really think it's best to get hired as a c++ programmer rather than something totally alien to it.Quote:
To make it happen you need a theoretical foundation and the fastest and easiest way to get one is by the way of a degree.
I'm only close to it. I think. I've sent a CV for a job, filled an online test - and that was my first c++ test outside school and the only thing that gave me an idea about what programming elements I should expect to use. I'm still frustrated of not studying properly STL before (I was thinking even that making lists classes myself would be a better idea), because, for instance, I didn't know how to delete an element of a vector (STL) if the elements are pointers to structures. Now I didn't receive the result of the test yet, hope It'll be ok and I could go to the next test as well. Now I'm re-learning some C++ stuff from C++ The Complete Reference 4th edition, to be sure that I fix things that escaped me.Quote:
If you had what it takes to get a job as game programmer or phone-app developer or whatever you'd already been busy doing it. It's a characteristic of the self-taught programmer.
to JohnW@Wessex:
it might sound odd, but what is "design patterns"? I've heard the term before but I don't know what it refers to.
I'm curios of something, if you wish to tell me: how would you regard a person that wants to be hired as a c++ programmer in the game programming field (for the first time, last summer has finished the faculty), that has 6/7 years of c++ programming at home (self teaching), alone, and his knowledge and wisdom are the result of what he put his hands on (he applied his c++ skills mostly for windows api, mfc) , what he found interesting to learn and the programs he needed to make (e.g. an aplication for sending files & folders, a faster search than the Windows Vista & 7 search and with more search options than it), who's teachings of programming learnt at faculty are useless for any real job (so he can really say that he learnt programming at home), and whose math skill are rusty (linear algebra, geometry, etc.), and who wishes to learn D3D but he is still a starter.Quote:
More important to us is their employment history including responsibilities and demonstration of creative thinking. These skills are much more valued by us than pure knowledge. Knowledge is good, but wisdom is even better.
I'll explaini "rusty knowledge" of linear algebra below:
he tried to learn linear algebra at school, though the teachers were not caring too much of making the notions resemble something in real life (e.g. a definition like: it is called X something that respects the following conditions: a., b., c. . - and one makes him think, but what ACTUALLY is that?), the course was 14 weeks (2 courses each week), which was in the first year of faculty, after which the knowledge was never used. So this "knowledge" of linear algebra only makes it easier for him to learn linear algebra properly and more easily (e.g. from an ebook of maths applied in game programming) than someone that never interacted with it.
If I am right to feel inferior, perhaps you can give me some advices what to do (please).
You're probably right there. I still think that too much conditioning can make it harder for a person to see that there are many more viewpoints than they realise and just accept the status quo. I don't know whether I just met the wrong sort of music students, but i found that their years of exposure to western music theory often cringed when I exposed them to alternative scales (often far eastern, such as Gamalan). "That sounds awful, it's so out of tune!"Quote:
Originally Posted by GCDEF
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_...ter_science%29Quote:
Originally Posted by Feoggou
DirectX pretty much limits you to Windows and XBox. Most games now are cross platform, they either have a compatibility layer to switch between the two at compile time, or they are pure OpenGL. Nintendo is still the dominate gaming platform, the PS3 is nipping at it's heels, and iOS is number 3. None of those use D3D. I have a few friends in the gaming industry, none of them have any DirectX knowledge.
Unless you have a good coding track record born out by a CV and references then you will have to show the prospective employer that you do have the skills that they need or have the capacity and willingness to learn them. Very few candidates are perfect for the job they apply for. The employer usually looks for a reasonably good fit to the requirements and expects the candidate to be willing to learn the rest without too much hand holding. Having written several applications yourself and being self taught will be a plus point (give them links to the source code?) though no coder becomes great in isolation from his or her peers and they may be wary that your coding style may not be very well developed. Enthusiasm and willingness to learn count, though you may have to put up with a few mundane jobs until you have proved yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Feoggou
Don't get the impression that all computer science graduates can code. A good many couldn't program an application to save their life, in a real world job. (We've met them at interview)
Honestly, if someone I was interviewing said that, I'd just end the interview right there and then. I wouldn't really care how many years of "self taught" experience they have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Feoggou
That is the problem with "Self Taught". Its not a question of having or not having a given skill, its a matter of amount of background, and (proven) ability to learn said skill.
The point in having a degree is not just saying "I am skilled at programming", but saying "I've learned already learned tons of things. I've graduated, which proves I can (and will) learn the required skills, and anything else you'll potentially throw at me. I have a background in Math, Physics, Algorithm and Economy, so I can understand the point of the project, and, maybe eventually lead its development. I will not stare at you like a retard every time you mention things like Fourier Transform or Logarithmic Scale. I can think for Myself".
Without a degree you might be able to get a job, but as a tech rank. And probably stay there.
Anyways, that's my view on the thing. As was also mentioned, a Degree, regardless of what, is better than nothing. The sole fact that you have a degree means you actually took the time and effort to take and stick to a cursus, and that is already something employers will appreciate. Saying "6 years of self taught" means nothing.
Any 3D library is going to involve rotations and translations and other matrix math operations. Probably some splines too. Yes, there's a fair bit of math you need to understand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Feoggou
I'm surprised that D3D would require you to do all that extra stuff just to draw a cube. In OpenGL you certainly *can* specify textures and shaders and whatnot, but you don't have to for basic drawing.....
You might want to pick up "The Red Book." It's a very good tool for OpenGL.
And as mentioned before, don't think you are inferior because of your lack of a degree. I had a professor (PhD) who couldn't program to save his life. How he even got a doctorate is beyond me. Degrees just help because they filter out unskilled programmers. USUALLY someone with a degree is a decent programmer, but not always. That helps in an interview, but if you can demonstrate a high level of skill, most employers (I hope) will overlook the lack of a degree. However, if they have two candidates who seem equally skilled, they will probably pick the one with the degree.
That's where I started. But not where I have ended up.Quote:
Originally Posted by monarch_dodra
A degree may give you a bit of a step up at first, but at my age degrees are what happened 30 years ago and appear at the least interesting end of the CV.
@JohnW http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2010-12-23/ :P
I think after only a few years, the lack of a degree shouldn't hold you back. A few years in the field show that you know what you're doing, and you have to skill to stay with it. By that time, performance matters, not credentials. I've only been out of school for a few years, but in my last interview, they weer more interested in my sourceforge projects and my publications than my education.
:D At least I don't have a 'comb-over'.Quote:
Originally Posted by ninja9578
wow.. i did not expect this to turn into a huge debate :P
I was just wondering if it was actually possible to get a good job without a degree. I'm studying computer animation but programming really interests me.. i imagine being a vfx artist with programming experience would be more desirable than just someone who's a vfx artist eh?
That's one of the questions I wanted to ask you. You say you want to be a game "Developper", but do you realize most game developers are not programmers per say? Half of them are artists, and the other half are designer. Provided you're not developing a render engine or whatever of course.Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenpalomino
The importing things to master are not OpenGL/Direct3D/C++, but whatever program you will use to model stuff in game.
While you *might* get a job without a degree, if at all possible, I would HIGHLY recommend you take a course in any school, if even for a single year. The point is not necessarily to learn skills, but at least to know the universe, the tools, the techniques etc...
What you can also do is take internships, during or after your degree. Businesses are much less strict on interns because A: If they suck they just leave after 6 months; B: They don't have high hopes to begin with. If you are as motivated as you say you are, it'll show, and they might hire you after the internship. If not, you'll have an actual work experience, which is also a major +. Finally, you might be able to get a recommendation.
So yeah. My advice to you is that if you are really motivated, give yourself the tools to succeed. Don't just charge head down asking for a job. You'll not only not get it, you'll be filed in your future employers' files as "Bad Candidate".
Good Luck
you said before:Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnW@Wessex
I've read from the link a large list of patterns. does this "firm knowledge of ... design patterns" means learning all patterns?Quote:
Any applicant that doesn't have a firm knowledge of templates, inheritance, polymorphism, design patterns etc. are going to find it difficult to regulate changes.
what are these mundane jobs you mean? a non-game field programming first? a small game developping company that doesn't do great games?Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnW@Wessex
at least that's what this book requires. I'm learning D3D10. it used to be easier when I started learning D3D9 (and perhaps 9.0 c). I've just put my hands now on a book about design patterns. I don't know when exactly I will return to it (D3D10) and continue with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindley
a few things:Quote:
Originally Posted by monarch_dodra
1. can you recommend me some books on maths, physics and perhaps algorithms? and... is economy really necessary? I've always disliked even thinking about it. I mean, something that is NEEDED.
2. I tell you this just so you would undertand me: if I would have lived in a rich and developed country, in a large city, with a very important university that would have taught all that is needed and did that properly and I would have had the money, I would have NEVER thought about learning programming home instead. On the contrary, the 'advanced' programming techniques that I've learnt in faculty - it was a course named something like that - I could have done them myself in the high school, I had useless subjects (like one that asked us to learn the definition of an alphabet, of a letter, what is that a language, formulas about them, how to arrange the letters to form a word, etc.), the Artificial Inteligence course had unexplained abstract schemes, was full of abstract definitons and nothing concrete, while the teacher that 'taught' that seemed to have not known anything about what she was 'teaching', etc.
So, all I can do is make use of what is AVAILABLE to me. And that is, self-teaching and, if I get a job in C++ programming, to learn there more and more. I said these so I would not seem like a "not willing to do anything" guy.
don't worry, my teacher that had the doctorate and 'taught' me c++ didn't know c++. he didn't even know the difference between using ' ' and using " ". only the c++ courses were done in c++. the 'advanced programming', etc. were done in PASCAL perhaps because he didn't know c++. when he was teaching something (like an algorithm) he was often looking in his papers.Quote:
Originally Posted by ninja9578
especially one who's had experience in c++ at a company before. perhaps among others...Quote:
However, if they have two candidates who seem equally skilled, they will probably pick the one with the degree.
That's a pretty broad and sweeping statement. Suggest you tone it down a bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by nuzzle
I suffer no inferiority complex myself, and I'll keep my right hand, thanks. I just suffer from 35+ years of industry experience. No one asks me about a degree when they see my rap sheet. Ask any of the companies I've worked for if they give a rip whether or not I have a "sheepskin".
On the other hand, I have met a number of "degreed" and "certified" individuals who couldn't code their way out of a wet bag. They're real good at passing tests but when it comes down to hitting a hard deadline with a deliverable ...
Yes, in a mature market, a degree will bubble a resume up a little higher in the pile with individuals of the same age and experience but it will NOT supplant hard industry experience.
Be careful when you generalize like this, please.
-Max
No, I mean that you may get to work for a good gaming company, but until they are sure of your skills, they may not give you the best or most interesting tasks to do. Show them that you can easily do the simpler (but less interesting) stuff and they will undoubtedly move you on to greater things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Feoggou