programming jobs without degree

[Feoggou]

Any 3D library is going to involve rotations and translations and other matrix math operations. Probably some splines too. Yes, there's a fair bit of math you need to understand.

I'm surprised that D3D would require you to do all that extra stuff just to draw a cube. In OpenGL you certainly *can* specify textures and shaders and whatnot, but you don't have to for basic drawing.....

at least that's what this book requires. I'm learning D3D10. it used to be easier when I started learning D3D9 (and perhaps 9.0 c). I've just put my hands now on a book about design patterns. I don't know when exactly I will return to it (D3D10) and continue with it.

[Feoggou]

Honestly, if someone I was interviewing said that, I'd just end the interview right there and then. I wouldn't really care how many years of "self taught" experience they have.

That is the problem with "Self Taught". Its not a question of having or not having a given skill, its a matter of amount of background, and (proven) ability to learn said skill.

The point in having a degree is not just saying "I am skilled at programming", but saying "I've learned already learned tons of things. I've graduated, which proves I can (and will) learn the required skills, and anything else you'll potentially throw at me. I have a background in Math, Physics, Algorithm and Economy, so I can understand the point of the project, and, maybe eventually lead its development. I will not stare at you like a retard every time you mention things like Fourier Transform or Logarithmic Scale. I can think for Myself".

Without a degree you might be able to get a job, but as a tech rank. And probably stay there.

Anyways, that's my view on the thing. As was also mentioned, a Degree, regardless of what, is better than nothing. The sole fact that you have a degree means you actually took the time and effort to take and stick to a cursus, and that is already something employers will appreciate. Saying "6 years of self taught" means nothing.

a few things:
1. can you recommend me some books on maths, physics and perhaps algorithms? and... is economy really necessary? I've always disliked even thinking about it. I mean, something that is NEEDED.

2. I tell you this just so you would undertand me: if I would have lived in a rich and developed country, in a large city, with a very important university that would have taught all that is needed and did that properly and I would have had the money, I would have NEVER thought about learning programming home instead. On the contrary, the 'advanced' programming techniques that I've learnt in faculty - it was a course named something like that - I could have done them myself in the high school, I had useless subjects (like one that asked us to learn the definition of an alphabet, of a letter, what is that a language, formulas about them, how to arrange the letters to form a word, etc.), the Artificial Inteligence course had unexplained abstract schemes, was full of abstract definitons and nothing concrete, while the teacher that 'taught' that seemed to have not known anything about what she was 'teaching', etc.

So, all I can do is make use of what is AVAILABLE to me. And that is, self-teaching and, if I get a job in C++ programming, to learn there more and more. I said these so I would not seem like a "not willing to do anything" guy.

[Feoggou]

You might want to pick up "The Red Book." It's a very good tool for OpenGL.

And as mentioned before, don't think you are inferior because of your lack of a degree. I had a professor (PhD) who couldn't program to save his life. How he even got a doctorate is beyond me. Degrees just help because they filter out unskilled programmers. USUALLY someone with a degree is a decent programmer, but not always. That helps in an interview, but if you can demonstrate a high level of skill, most employers (I hope) will overlook the lack of a degree. However, if they have two candidates who seem equally skilled, they will probably pick the one with the degree.

don't worry, my teacher that had the doctorate and 'taught' me c++ didn't know c++. he didn't even know the difference between using ' ' and using " ". only the c++ courses were done in c++. the 'advanced programming', etc. were done in PASCAL perhaps because he didn't know c++. when he was teaching something (like an algorithm) he was often looking in his papers.

However, if they have two candidates who seem equally skilled, they will probably pick the one with the degree.

especially one who's had experience in c++ at a company before. perhaps among others...

[Max Peck]

The notion that "experience is more important than a degree" is a myth carefully guarded by people who wished they had one. It's just a way to deal with an inferiority complex. They realize what they're missing and would give their right hand to have it.

That's a pretty broad and sweeping statement. Suggest you tone it down a bit.

I suffer no inferiority complex myself, and I'll keep my right hand, thanks. I just suffer from 35+ years of industry experience. No one asks me about a degree when they see my rap sheet. Ask any of the companies I've worked for if they give a rip whether or not I have a "sheepskin".

On the other hand, I have met a number of "degreed" and "certified" individuals who couldn't code their way out of a wet bag. They're real good at passing tests but when it comes down to hitting a hard deadline with a deliverable ...

Yes, in a mature market, a degree will bubble a resume up a little higher in the pile with individuals of the same age and experience but it will NOT supplant hard industry experience.

Be careful when you generalize like this, please.

-Max

[JohnW@Wessex]

what are these mundane jobs you mean? a non-game field programming first? a small game developping company that doesn't do great games?

No, I mean that you may get to work for a good gaming company, but until they are sure of your skills, they may not give you the best or most interesting tasks to do. Show them that you can easily do the simpler (but less interesting) stuff and they will undoubtedly move you on to greater things.

[nuzzle]

That's a pretty broad and sweeping statement. Suggest you tone it down a bit.

I suffer no inferiority complex myself, and I'll keep my right hand, thanks. I just suffer from 35+ years of industry experience. No one asks me about a degree when they see my rap sheet. Ask any of the companies I've worked for if they give a rip whether or not I have a "sheepskin".

On the other hand, I have met a number of "degreed" and "certified" individuals who couldn't code their way out of a wet bag. They're real good at passing tests but when it comes down to hitting a hard deadline with a deliverable ...

Yes, in a mature market, a degree will bubble a resume up a little higher in the pile with individuals of the same age and experience but it will NOT supplant hard industry experience.

Be careful when you generalize like this, please.

-Max

This is the typical "just look at me" defensive response you usually get from people with the kind of inferiority complex I was talking about.

What you don't seem to understand is that your individual experience is pretty much uninteresting for anyone who's contemplating a degree. That kind of life defining decision should be based on generalization and not on the fate of specific individuals. And all statistical evidence is pointing in the same direction. With a degree you're much more likely to have a satisfying career as programmer than without one.

[GCDEF]

With a degree you're much more likely to have a satisfying career as programmer than without one.

Nobody said anything different. What I said based on 28 years in the business, if I have a need and I have two candidates, one with a degree and no experience, and one with no degree and several years of relevant experience, I'd pick the guy with the experience. I can also see Max's point of view that once you've established yourself, the degree also becomes less important. Starting out a degree will open doors, and in some bigger companies it's a requirement and it certainly isn't going to hurt you.

Personally, I got my first programming job in 1983. I didn't get my bachelor's degree until 1997, so I had a good 14 year run without a degree. I got my BS just as a matter of pride, then went on and got a MS and an MBA just to do it. So I'm speaking as somebody who's had a good career with no degree and well degreed, and no insecurities either way.

Your premise that people without a degree use that as an excuse to justify insecurities is not only rude, it's not accurate.

[Lindley]

I've read from the link a large list of patterns. does this "firm knowledge of ... design patterns" means learning all patterns?

You never really learn a pattern until you've tried using it, so no, I wouldn't say you need to have in-depth knowledge of all patterns.

What is important is that you know what design patterns are, where to look them up when you encounter documentation saying that a particular pattern is being used, and have a basic grasp of what problems some of the more popular patterns are intended to solve.

[nuzzle]

Nobody said anything different. What I said based on 28 years in the business, if I have a need and I have two candidates, one with a degree and no experience, and one with no degree and several years of relevant experience, I'd pick the guy with the experience. I can also see Max's point of view that once you've established yourself, the degree also becomes less important. Starting out a degree will open doors, and in some bigger companies it's a requirement and it certainly isn't going to hurt you.

Personally, I got my first programming job in 1983. I didn't get my bachelor's degree until 1997, so I had a good 14 year run without a degree. I got my BS just as a matter of pride, then went on and got a MS and an MBA just to do it. So I'm speaking as somebody who's had a good career with no degree and well degreed, and no insecurities either way.

Your premise that people without a degree use that as an excuse to justify insecurities is not only rude, it's not accurate.

Yet another "look at me" defensive post. No I don't know if you have been driven by insecurity and it doesn't matter, that's my point. The statistical outcome matters, not the individual.

To any young person. You don't have to listen to pompous deliberations as to whether someone would prefer to employ a graduate or a non-graduate under various scenarios. And you don't have to listen to boring life-stories about how someone fared so well or so bad with or without a degree. It's irrelevant.

The only thing you need to know is that statistically a degree will firmly turn the Rota Fortunae in your favour. So go get a degree if you have the chance.

[GCDEF]

Yet another "look at me" defensive post. No I don't know if you have been driven by insecurity and it doesn't matter, that's my point. The statistical outcome matters, not the individual.

To any young person. You don't have to listen to pompous deliberations as to whether someone would prefer to employ a graduate or a non-graduate under various scenarios. And you don't have to listen to boring life-stories about how someone fared so well or so bad with or without a degree. It's irrelevant.

The only thing you need to know is that statistically a degree will firmly turn the Rota Fortunae in your favour. So go get a degree if you have the chance.

You're not paying any attention at all to what anybody is saying, and you're being extremely rude and arrogant in the process. I don't see the need for an attitude like that. You can make your point without berating other posters. Name calling and insults aren't appropriate here.

[somedaysomewhere]

I have read some posts in this thread and I confirm it myself that nothing is related to me and my business! I post just to tell everyone that I am not going to poke my nose in.

[nuzzle]

You're not paying any attention at all to what anybody is saying, and you're being extremely rude and arrogant in the process. I don't see the need for an attitude like that. You can make your point without berating other posters. Name calling and insults aren't appropriate here.

Who's not paying attention?

My main point is that I consider individual outcomes completely irrelevant for anyone who's trying to decide whether to pursue a university education. If you find it rude that I'm not exactly jumping for joy over yet another life story it's your problem.

Instead explain what you think drives non-graduates who constantly are badmouthing higher education in general and graduates in particular. I think it's insecurity. If you think it's something else it would be interesting to know what?

[GCDEF]

Who's not paying attention?

My main point is that I consider individual outcomes completely irrelevant for anyone who's trying to decide whether to pursue a university education. If you find it rude that I'm not exactly jumping for joy over yet another life story it's your problem.

Instead explain what you think drives non-gradauates who constantly are badmouthing higher education in general and graduates in particular. I think it's insecurity. If you think it's something else it would be interesting to know what?

The fact that you're posting this shows that you're ignoring what's being said. I've said it several times but I'll say it again although I don't see the point. Nobody said don't get an education. All anybody said is that given a candidate with no experience and a degree, or no degree and relevant experience, the experienced one is more likely to get hired. The other point was that as your resume gets longer, the degree gets less important. I would welcome you to point out the post where anybody said an education isn't worth getting.

Nobody is arguing against education. I don't know why you keep pretending anybody is. I don't know why you feel the need to degrade those of us with decades of experience in the field. The two of us making that point that you seem to be railing against both have degrees anyway, so it's not some kind of bogus justification on our part. You say it's insecurity on the part of those without degrees. I have two master's degrees. That kind of blows holes in your theory doesn't it, and that's the only reason I mention them.

You really have been very rude and condescending and should rethink your attitude. At least respond to what's being said, not to your straw man.

[Max Peck]

This is the typical "just look at me" defensive response you usually get from people with the kind of inferiority complex I was talking about.

OK, you're entitled to your opinion. :-)

With a degree you're much more likely to have a satisfying career as programmer than without one.

OK, if you say so. I've worked at this for 35 years and still don't look at my watch. If that isn't satisfaction I don't know what is. However you seem to be painting yourself as the expert here so we'll just leave it at that.

-Max

[Max Peck]

Your premise that people without a degree use that as an excuse to justify insecurities is not only rude, it's not accurate.

Thank you most kindly, sir. I couldn't agree more.

I know of few individuals around me who enjoy what they do for a living anywhere near as much as I do. I don't feel like I've worked a day in 35 years. Now if that ain't satisfaction I don't know what is!

-Max